RAH signs agreement with Midwest Airlines
09-03-2008 | 08:21 PM
#51
Che Guevara
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
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Dry/Wet Lease
1. The Company will not enter into any dry/wet lease agreement, or
contract with or for any other carrier or entities (government,
military or commercial) without mutual agreement with the Union.
a. No pilot within the bargaining unit will be reduced in status or
lose any income or employee benefits while discussions are
taking place.
b. The Union will not disagree to a dry lease when such dry
lease is for the sole purpose of leasing out excess aircraft
owned or leased by the Company. No aircraft dry leased to
another carrier or entity will be operated into or out of any
cities where the Company operates. Such dry lease will not
result in the reduction in status or the furlough of any
Chautauqua Pilot in cases where the dry lease provides a
profit to the Company. At the request of the Union it may
review the actual dry lease documents.
1. The Company will not enter into any dry/wet lease agreement, or
contract with or for any other carrier or entities (government,
military or commercial) without mutual agreement with the Union.
a. No pilot within the bargaining unit will be reduced in status or
lose any income or employee benefits while discussions are
taking place.
b. The Union will not disagree to a dry lease when such dry
lease is for the sole purpose of leasing out excess aircraft
owned or leased by the Company. No aircraft dry leased to
another carrier or entity will be operated into or out of any
cities where the Company operates. Such dry lease will not
result in the reduction in status or the furlough of any
Chautauqua Pilot in cases where the dry lease provides a
profit to the Company. At the request of the Union it may
review the actual dry lease documents.
Now the real question should be when these talks started. Now even if I were a bad lawyer, which would still be a leg up from Gene, I'd make the argument that since the furloughs were not yet effective at the time of the agreement that the leasing of these planes to someone other than RAH pilots did in fact lead to more furloughs that wouldn't have initially existed had the planes been flown by RAH pilots.
09-03-2008 | 08:27 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 187
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From: CL605 PIC
WARNING: this post will make you think.
Tragedy of the commons. READ THIS LINK FIRST:
Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cows = airline pilots
Herder = airline management
Commons = the passengers
Translation:
There's only so many passengers who fly. The lowest bidder gets to fly them, but then the passengers gripe about the lack of service. Management doesn't really care about the pilots, because pilots CONSUME resources and passengers GENERATE income.
Let's take this a bit further. See Prisoner's Dilemma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
Prisoners = RJ pilot group and mainline pilot group
Defect = agree to contract concessions (less pay, relaxed scope)
Jail Time = loss of job
15 years ago, a regional pilot flew 19 seat B-1900s and EMB-120s and would love to get hired by a mainline carrier flying F-28s or F-100s for AA or USAir. 10 years ago, regional pilots flew 40 seat RJs and would love to get hired by someone flying 737s. Today, regional pilots fly 70 and 90 seat "regional jets" and wonder where the hell all the mainline jobs went.
I'm not pointing blame at the guys who took the RJ job. After all, if they didn't, then someone else would.
5 years from now, the fighting is going to be our RJ pilots fighting against Brazilian, Indian, or French "Open Skies" pilots who will find a way to undercut our RJs and SWA because their government subsidies give them an advantage. The sad thing is that those flights will be operated under the United, American, Continental, and maybe even MEDEX callsign and paint scheme that we see today.
It's time for ALPA to become a NATIONAL union and demand NATIONAL payscales. This downward trend will only continue unless ALPA finds a way to UNITE us so that we fight MANAGEMENT and not each other.
This concludes your philosophy lesson of the day...
Riddler
Tragedy of the commons. READ THIS LINK FIRST:
Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cows = airline pilots
Herder = airline management
Commons = the passengers
Translation:
There's only so many passengers who fly. The lowest bidder gets to fly them, but then the passengers gripe about the lack of service. Management doesn't really care about the pilots, because pilots CONSUME resources and passengers GENERATE income.
Let's take this a bit further. See Prisoner's Dilemma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
Prisoners = RJ pilot group and mainline pilot group
Defect = agree to contract concessions (less pay, relaxed scope)
Jail Time = loss of job
15 years ago, a regional pilot flew 19 seat B-1900s and EMB-120s and would love to get hired by a mainline carrier flying F-28s or F-100s for AA or USAir. 10 years ago, regional pilots flew 40 seat RJs and would love to get hired by someone flying 737s. Today, regional pilots fly 70 and 90 seat "regional jets" and wonder where the hell all the mainline jobs went.
I'm not pointing blame at the guys who took the RJ job. After all, if they didn't, then someone else would.
5 years from now, the fighting is going to be our RJ pilots fighting against Brazilian, Indian, or French "Open Skies" pilots who will find a way to undercut our RJs and SWA because their government subsidies give them an advantage. The sad thing is that those flights will be operated under the United, American, Continental, and maybe even MEDEX callsign and paint scheme that we see today.
It's time for ALPA to become a NATIONAL union and demand NATIONAL payscales. This downward trend will only continue unless ALPA finds a way to UNITE us so that we fight MANAGEMENT and not each other.
This concludes your philosophy lesson of the day...
Riddler
the problem is, there have been hundreds of posts along the same lines i.e. one payscale, one seniority list (things ALPA needs to do to improve, but nothing being done to follow through on it.
Ideas are great, but we need action...
09-03-2008 | 08:42 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
From: E170 FO
The planes were already parked and tied down. The way I've read the contract is that the company is not reducing the status of any pilot or furloughing anyone additional over this. Therefore it's allowed per the CBA.
Now the real question should be when these talks started. Now even if I were a bad lawyer, which would still be a leg up from Gene, I'd make the argument that since the furloughs were not yet effective at the time of the agreement that the leasing of these planes to someone other than RAH pilots did in fact lead to more furloughs that wouldn't have initially existed had the planes been flown by RAH pilots.
Now the real question should be when these talks started. Now even if I were a bad lawyer, which would still be a leg up from Gene, I'd make the argument that since the furloughs were not yet effective at the time of the agreement that the leasing of these planes to someone other than RAH pilots did in fact lead to more furloughs that wouldn't have initially existed had the planes been flown by RAH pilots.
The unique twist comes in considering that those aircraft are to be put in service as RAH flying for YX prior to the lease option being exercised. If the lease option was exercised, those aircraft would no longer be in excess at that time(flying as Midwest Connect). Either way its a fishy deal and the general feeling amongst RAH is that we are being used in a bigger nefarious management plot.
09-03-2008 | 08:46 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,215
Likes: 0
From: Capt
Hi!
I hope that the Midwest pilots will be absorbed into NWA/DAL. From what I've read online, that is how I understand it. I hope I am right.
cliff
YIP
PS-My CEO has flown Midwest a lot, and she really likes them.
I hope that the Midwest pilots will be absorbed into NWA/DAL. From what I've read online, that is how I understand it. I hope I am right.
cliff
YIP
PS-My CEO has flown Midwest a lot, and she really likes them.
09-03-2008 | 09:11 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
From: Furloughed Righ Seater
Im getting furloughed from RAH on the 8th. I dont plan on answering my phone from now until then just in case they decide to to cancel my furlough in light of this "flying job" and should they by chance recall me after the 8th for this temp position I will tell them where they can go.
Midwest pilots, i will not trade you a day on the streets for your rightful flights. I have no desire to be a part of this shamful play by managment.
Midwest pilots, i will not trade you a day on the streets for your rightful flights. I have no desire to be a part of this shamful play by managment.
09-03-2008 | 09:23 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Im getting furloughed from RAH on the 8th. I dont plan on answering my phone from now until then just in case they decide to to cancel my furlough in light of this "flying job" and should they by chance recall me after the 8th for this temp position I will tell them where they can go.
Midwest pilots, i will not trade you a day on the streets for your rightful flights. I have no desire to be a part of this shamful play by managment.
Midwest pilots, i will not trade you a day on the streets for your rightful flights. I have no desire to be a part of this shamful play by managment.
unless im not aware of how we are going to be financially relieved of that were gonna have to wait and see how things pan out before we make our next move.
if it comes down to not showing up for work essentially walking off the job and getting fired then we will have to cross that bridge when we get there.
its time now for the union and entire group (from both sides) to get together and figure how we all wanna handle this.
FWIW...i too will be furloughed as of the 8th
09-03-2008 | 09:52 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Im getting furloughed from RAH on the 8th. I dont plan on answering my phone from now until then just in case they decide to to cancel my furlough in light of this "flying job" and should they by chance recall me after the 8th for this temp position I will tell them where they can go.
Midwest pilots, i will not trade you a day on the streets for your rightful flights. I have no desire to be a part of this shamful play by managment.
Midwest pilots, i will not trade you a day on the streets for your rightful flights. I have no desire to be a part of this shamful play by managment.
09-03-2008 | 10:08 PM
#58
Che Guevara
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Likes: 0
Can you give any insight into what is being asked of the pilot group to fly the 170s? Or MEC didn't even know of this till it was public. I hope your group realizes that we are all in this together in one form or another. We have no say so in the matter and wish you guys nothing but the best. Hopefully this move will save you from the F-bomb.
09-03-2008 | 10:23 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Can you give any insight into what is being asked of the pilot group to fly the 170s? Or MEC didn't even know of this till it was public. I hope your group realizes that we are all in this together in one form or another. We have no say so in the matter and wish you guys nothing but the best. Hopefully this move will save you from the F-bomb.
It looks like the MEC had little advanced knowlege of it, maybe earlier in the day.
I can't speak for anyone else, but the writing was on the wall for this thing. Asking a six year F/O to make $30 some odd bucks an hour?? They were baiting us to be a scapegoat.
I for one hold no animosity towards any other pilot group.
Unless our pilot group agrees to wage concessions down to your payrates, I can't see a Midwest pilot ever flying your planes.
09-03-2008 | 11:14 PM
#60
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
XJT was whipsawed by CAL and SKW and had no choice but to sign the deal or otherwise wind down the company. I'm sure you saw the letters from CAL saying as much. Much like what is happening to Midwest.
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