RAH signs agreement with Midwest Airlines
09-03-2008, 06:36 PM
#41
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Originally Posted by btwissel
Saab, you should see the discussion over @ RP.org. we've pretty much come to the same conclusion as here. this is an attempt to whipsaw Midwest and screw all of us over.
if any one knows if it's bad juju to post excerpts of your contract, i'll come back later and post the Scope section of ours. basically, if it's owned by RAH, then RAH pilots have to fly it. i can't see any way that if it were to go to court that they could get around it.
if any one knows if it's bad juju to post excerpts of your contract, i'll come back later and post the Scope section of ours. basically, if it's owned by RAH, then RAH pilots have to fly it. i can't see any way that if it were to go to court that they could get around it.
1) This is not a violation of our contract the way I read it. I wish it were though.
2) We have no idea what the Midwest pilot's deal is.
3) Midwest could simply be saving a TON of money by returning the 717s to boeing.
4) This deal, one way or another, is going to save jobs at Midwest. I'd like to see them at RAH but not at the expense of others.
5) This is good for RAH and the pilots in one form or another. Once again I don't want to see any RAH planes being flown by non-RAH pilots but this saves RAH a nice chunk of change and actually makes them a little. During contract negotiations that's more $$$ leverage we can argue for.
You guys, just wait till you see what United has in store for Republic. Watch another jets for jobs deal come out of that whole mess this year. That company is a virus and a cancer in this industry and will be the demise of our careers. The writing is on the wall and we are heading towards a new era in airline flying.
We have a bunch of failing major airlines being propped up by cheap, eager, opportunistic regional carriers who move in when the gettin is good.
Just when a major is about to go toe up in swoops their savior, Republik...my balls...and takes over a huge chunk of flying the the major just couldn't support anymore.
In turn, the major airline negotiates the contract down to the bare bones and the regional passes this down to the labor groups, and the beat goes on, and on.
Meanwhile, said labor group watches their company grow, expand and prosper, yet continually fails to negotiate a contract remotly approaching the rates proportionate to the flying they are now doing inplace of their brother that came before them.
I'll accept it as some kind of misplaced rage. I wonder if he'll follow his own words and quit or accept pay reductions. So many were quick to talk but now that the money's on the table attitudes appear to be changing.
Last edited by ToiletDuck; 09-03-2008 at 06:41 PM.
09-03-2008, 07:00 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Left Seat, Toyota Tacoma
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by SAABaroowski
I dont post much here anymore, I have grown tired of the bad news in the industry and usually me on this site leads to me growing bitter but this news sums it all up. Airline management will continue to farm out flying to regional guys if they are able to operate the flights for lower cost. The major reason they are able to do that is because they pay labor such low wages. The majority of pilots accept low wages (including myself) in hopes of gaining experience and moving on to a major airline.......................GUESS WHAT FELLAS?, there will no longer be any jobs at the major level.
I dont blame the RAH pilots, I blame the Midwest scum that are doing this to get around paying a fair wage to their pilots, I do expect RAH to raise the bar come contract time.....enough is enough I am thoroughly disgusted with this industry and I hope MIDWEST PILOTS stop showing up for work................then the airline could shut down and there will be no flying to ***** out, so be it if RAH furloughs.........I would much rather see a 20k a year guy furloughed then one at a Major level. In all honesty I would imagine RAH guys are embarrassed, I mean after all the 717 (Midwest configurations) arent much larger then the "E-JETS"
PS This is all predicated one who will actually be flying these planes, if its Midwest guys fine, if its RAH guys, I stand by my post above
I read this post on the XJT forum, and I think it sums it up very well
You guys, just wait till you see what United has in store for Republic. Watch another jets for jobs deal come out of that whole mess this year. That company is a virus and a cancer in this industry and will be the demise of our careers. The writing is on the wall and we are heading towards a new era in airline flying.
We have a bunch of failing major airlines being propped up by cheap, eager, opportunistic regional carriers who move in when the gettin is good. Just when a major is about to go toe up in swoops their savior, Republik...my balls...and takes over a huge chunk of flying the the major just couldn't support anymore. In turn, the major airline negotiates the contract down to the bare bones and the regional passes this down to the labor groups, and the beat goes on, and on.
Meanwhile, said labor group watches their company grow, expand and prosper, yet continually fails to negotiate a contract remotly approaching the rates proportionate to the flying they are now doing inplace of their brother that came before them.
Have fun Republic. You guys are the demise of our industry. How many more 737 jobs can you diassemble? When will you step up and push back at your company that doesn't care about the history of airline piloting? When are you going to do your part, or are you going to just keep on taking?
I dont blame the RAH pilots, I blame the Midwest scum that are doing this to get around paying a fair wage to their pilots, I do expect RAH to raise the bar come contract time.....enough is enough I am thoroughly disgusted with this industry and I hope MIDWEST PILOTS stop showing up for work................then the airline could shut down and there will be no flying to ***** out, so be it if RAH furloughs.........I would much rather see a 20k a year guy furloughed then one at a Major level. In all honesty I would imagine RAH guys are embarrassed, I mean after all the 717 (Midwest configurations) arent much larger then the "E-JETS"
PS This is all predicated one who will actually be flying these planes, if its Midwest guys fine, if its RAH guys, I stand by my post above
I read this post on the XJT forum, and I think it sums it up very well
You guys, just wait till you see what United has in store for Republic. Watch another jets for jobs deal come out of that whole mess this year. That company is a virus and a cancer in this industry and will be the demise of our careers. The writing is on the wall and we are heading towards a new era in airline flying.
We have a bunch of failing major airlines being propped up by cheap, eager, opportunistic regional carriers who move in when the gettin is good. Just when a major is about to go toe up in swoops their savior, Republik...my balls...and takes over a huge chunk of flying the the major just couldn't support anymore. In turn, the major airline negotiates the contract down to the bare bones and the regional passes this down to the labor groups, and the beat goes on, and on.
Meanwhile, said labor group watches their company grow, expand and prosper, yet continually fails to negotiate a contract remotly approaching the rates proportionate to the flying they are now doing inplace of their brother that came before them.
Have fun Republic. You guys are the demise of our industry. How many more 737 jobs can you diassemble? When will you step up and push back at your company that doesn't care about the history of airline piloting? When are you going to do your part, or are you going to just keep on taking?
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm one of those 737 guys now looking at unemployment next week. And CAL wanted its pilots to relax ist scope so that we can do the same exact thing with UAL - take 737s off our routes and let 3rd party RJs fly our passengers. What a crock of chit.
09-03-2008, 07:08 PM
#43
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 96
The overall feeling I get at RAH pilot group is that none of us want to screw the Midwest guys. We did not see this coming...
09-03-2008, 07:14 PM
#44
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: A318 short bus
Posts: 47
if any of you think RAH pilots will get to "vote" on anything to do with this latest bit of news, your wrong. The company does what it wants and steam rolls the union at every turn.
I'm sorry for the Midwest pilots, but don't even think about blaming the RAH pilots...
I'm sorry for the Midwest pilots, but don't even think about blaming the RAH pilots...
09-03-2008, 07:36 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Left Seat, Toyota Tacoma
Posts: 593
WARNING: this post will make you think.
Tragedy of the commons. READ THIS LINK FIRST:
Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cows = airline pilots
Herder = airline management
Commons = the passengers
Translation:
There's only so many passengers who fly. The lowest bidder gets to fly them, but then the passengers gripe about the lack of service. Management doesn't really care about the pilots, because pilots CONSUME resources and passengers GENERATE income.
Let's take this a bit further. See Prisoner's Dilemma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
Prisoners = RJ pilot group and mainline pilot group
Defect = agree to contract concessions (less pay, relaxed scope)
Jail Time = loss of job
15 years ago, a regional pilot flew 19 seat B-1900s and EMB-120s and would love to get hired by a mainline carrier flying F-28s or F-100s for AA or USAir. 10 years ago, regional pilots flew 40 seat RJs and would love to get hired by someone flying 737s. Today, regional pilots fly 70 and 90 seat "regional jets" and wonder where the hell all the mainline jobs went.
I'm not pointing blame at the guys who took the RJ job. After all, if they didn't, then someone else would.
5 years from now, the fighting is going to be our RJ pilots fighting against Brazilian, Indian, or French "Open Skies" pilots who will find a way to undercut our RJs and SWA because their government subsidies give them an advantage. The sad thing is that those flights will be operated under the United, American, Continental, and maybe even MEDEX callsign and paint scheme that we see today.
It's time for ALPA to become a NATIONAL union and demand NATIONAL payscales. This downward trend will only continue unless ALPA finds a way to UNITE us so that we fight MANAGEMENT and not each other.
This concludes your philosophy lesson of the day...
Riddler
Tragedy of the commons. READ THIS LINK FIRST:
Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cows = airline pilots
Herder = airline management
Commons = the passengers
Translation:
There's only so many passengers who fly. The lowest bidder gets to fly them, but then the passengers gripe about the lack of service. Management doesn't really care about the pilots, because pilots CONSUME resources and passengers GENERATE income.
Let's take this a bit further. See Prisoner's Dilemma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
Prisoners = RJ pilot group and mainline pilot group
Defect = agree to contract concessions (less pay, relaxed scope)
Jail Time = loss of job
15 years ago, a regional pilot flew 19 seat B-1900s and EMB-120s and would love to get hired by a mainline carrier flying F-28s or F-100s for AA or USAir. 10 years ago, regional pilots flew 40 seat RJs and would love to get hired by someone flying 737s. Today, regional pilots fly 70 and 90 seat "regional jets" and wonder where the hell all the mainline jobs went.
I'm not pointing blame at the guys who took the RJ job. After all, if they didn't, then someone else would.
5 years from now, the fighting is going to be our RJ pilots fighting against Brazilian, Indian, or French "Open Skies" pilots who will find a way to undercut our RJs and SWA because their government subsidies give them an advantage. The sad thing is that those flights will be operated under the United, American, Continental, and maybe even MEDEX callsign and paint scheme that we see today.
It's time for ALPA to become a NATIONAL union and demand NATIONAL payscales. This downward trend will only continue unless ALPA finds a way to UNITE us so that we fight MANAGEMENT and not each other.
This concludes your philosophy lesson of the day...
Riddler
Last edited by Riddler; 09-03-2008 at 07:37 PM. Reason: attempted to fix broken link.
09-03-2008, 07:53 PM
#46
Rollin'
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: AA Airbus
Posts: 829
I couldn't agree more with Riddler.....................beautiful post.
09-03-2008, 08:04 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 172
Excellent posts everyone. I have stood behind Midwest Flight Crews from the start of all this. I hope everyone magically gets sick and starts taking FLMA. Tim H has no freak'n clue how to run a business. He only knows how to keep his pocket padded until he can get his retirement funds in line. This deal is a total disregard for the common good or any respect in this world. I fully suppose a walk off and strike. I hear UPS gives full benifits for part timers for only working a few hours per day. Sounds better than flying these days...
09-03-2008, 08:07 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 735
Well, I don't work for Republic (any more), but I do have a copy of the CBA...
From the Scope section...
Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, all present and
future flying (including that international flying which originates
or terminates within the United States or its possessions) and all
charters, ferry flights (not including ferry flights of newly-
acquired aircraft prior to being placed in revenue service),
training flights, test flights, (except test flights assigned to
management), or other utilization of aircraft owned or leased by
the company, the company’s parent or any subsidiary of the
company or subsidiary of the company’s parent shall be
performed by pilots on the Chautauqua Airlines Pilots’ System
Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions of this
Agreement or any other applicable agreement between the
company, the company’s parent or any subsidiary of the
company’s parent and the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, Airline Division.
So, right there, it says, if the company owns or leases the A/C, then they have to be operated by pilots on the Master Seniority List.
But wait, there's more...
The Company, Subsidiary of the Company, the Company’s
Parent or Subsidiary of the Parent shall not establish any new
airline (alter ego or otherwise) or acquire a controlling interest in
any carrier whether directly or through the Parent or another
Subsidiary of the Parent, and maintain it as a separate carrier.
A “Controlling Interest” or “Control” means the ownership of an
equity interest representing more than fifty percent (50%) of the
outstanding capital stock of an entity or voting securities
representing more than fifty percent (50%) of the total voting
power of outstanding securities then entitled to vote generally in
the election of such entity’s board of directors or other governing
body.
The announcement mentioned that the deal is being secured by Republic owning the note on the remaining 9 717's. Not knowing Midwest's balance sheet, I would have to say I am pretty sure that represents MORE than 50% of the equity in Midwest.
And the hits keep on coming...
The Company will not transfer aircraft, or operating authority to
its Parent, a Subsidiary of the Parent, or to a Subsidiary of the
Company for the purpose of evading the terms of this
Agreement. The Company will also not establish a third party
leasing device to evade the terms of this agreement.
That sums it up nicely.
This could be the beginning of a TERRIBLE trend in aviation...the 'virtual' airline. 'Branded' companies contracting out the flying to the cheapest provider.
Both the Midwest and RAH pilot groups should kill this as quickly and as loudly as possible.
For those of you at RAH who think this is a 'good deal' because you were about to be furloughed, keep in mind that could be YOUR 717 CA job you are giving away. Easy for me to say? Not really, I'm already on furlough.
From the Scope section...
Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, all present and
future flying (including that international flying which originates
or terminates within the United States or its possessions) and all
charters, ferry flights (not including ferry flights of newly-
acquired aircraft prior to being placed in revenue service),
training flights, test flights, (except test flights assigned to
management), or other utilization of aircraft owned or leased by
the company, the company’s parent or any subsidiary of the
company or subsidiary of the company’s parent shall be
performed by pilots on the Chautauqua Airlines Pilots’ System
Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions of this
Agreement or any other applicable agreement between the
company, the company’s parent or any subsidiary of the
company’s parent and the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, Airline Division.
So, right there, it says, if the company owns or leases the A/C, then they have to be operated by pilots on the Master Seniority List.
But wait, there's more...
The Company, Subsidiary of the Company, the Company’s
Parent or Subsidiary of the Parent shall not establish any new
airline (alter ego or otherwise) or acquire a controlling interest in
any carrier whether directly or through the Parent or another
Subsidiary of the Parent, and maintain it as a separate carrier.
A “Controlling Interest” or “Control” means the ownership of an
equity interest representing more than fifty percent (50%) of the
outstanding capital stock of an entity or voting securities
representing more than fifty percent (50%) of the total voting
power of outstanding securities then entitled to vote generally in
the election of such entity’s board of directors or other governing
body.
The announcement mentioned that the deal is being secured by Republic owning the note on the remaining 9 717's. Not knowing Midwest's balance sheet, I would have to say I am pretty sure that represents MORE than 50% of the equity in Midwest.
And the hits keep on coming...
The Company will not transfer aircraft, or operating authority to
its Parent, a Subsidiary of the Parent, or to a Subsidiary of the
Company for the purpose of evading the terms of this
Agreement. The Company will also not establish a third party
leasing device to evade the terms of this agreement.
That sums it up nicely.
This could be the beginning of a TERRIBLE trend in aviation...the 'virtual' airline. 'Branded' companies contracting out the flying to the cheapest provider.
Both the Midwest and RAH pilot groups should kill this as quickly and as loudly as possible.
For those of you at RAH who think this is a 'good deal' because you were about to be furloughed, keep in mind that could be YOUR 717 CA job you are giving away. Easy for me to say? Not really, I'm already on furlough.
09-03-2008, 08:12 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by Purple Nugget
-Republic will now hold all of Midwest's assets as collateral.
-Midwest has the option, and in all likelyhood will...
-Midwest has the option, and in all likelyhood will...
09-03-2008, 08:14 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
Matthew,
The majority of us here at RAH (at least the ones posting on republicpilots) agree with what you just said and have made a point to highlight that part of the contract.
Furlough (I'm on the list) or not, I think I'm safe in saying that most of us don't like this deal.
The majority of us here at RAH (at least the ones posting on republicpilots) agree with what you just said and have made a point to highlight that part of the contract.
Furlough (I'm on the list) or not, I think I'm safe in saying that most of us don't like this deal.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Frisky Pilot
Regional
20
01-01-2022 05:02 PM
