¡Revolución!
02-24-2009 | 06:09 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
what scares me is that when the youngsters (i say that sort of tongue and cheek as im only in my late twenties) see a plane like the CRJ1000 initial thoughts tend to gravitate more towards an inflated ego. little thought is given to the damage flying an aircraft that size for 20 bucks an hour does to our profession. and i know if i was to refuse to fly my plane for $30 there’s 50 people behind me that would do it for $10. and i wouldn’t be too terribly surprised if some would do it for free. every profession has interns 
02-25-2009 | 07:52 AM
#92
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,282
Likes: 0
From: A320 Cap
Did this really happen to you? Or did you hear about it from a friend who heard about it from a friend that this really truly pinky swear actually happened to. If it did happen to you do me a favor the next time you see one get out your cell phone camera and snap a picture of it and post it here along with dates and times. People claim to see these stickers "all the time" but nobody can seem to produce any proof that they exist. I'm not calling you a liar I would just like to see one since I've spent plenty of time in the ORD break room and other RAH bases and have yet to see one of these stickers. I DID however see a couple of Go Jet guys wearing ALPA lanyards at Flight Safety. THAT is a true story.
Maybe the reason that you hear a lot of people talking about it is because a lot of people have seen it! Even if its only 1 guy who has it on his bag, how many of us are in the ORD dining area at any one given time? Our Ops is right down the hall!
02-25-2009 | 07:59 AM
#93
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,282
Likes: 0
From: A320 Cap
For the record. I in no way meant to demean your plight with the majors, it's been extremely tough and I understand and agree with you're point of view.
My response of 'i'd rather have a pay cut than a job cut' was probably not in line with my true feelings. I made myself out to be one of those notorious folks who would undercut others for the sake of a job, this is not the case. I believe we all should be back to the pay scales and have the QOL that was prevalent in the 'good ol' days' and our contract needs fighting for, not undercutting.
Airplane chasing and the associated ego attached to those flying a shiny jet is pure craziness. There should be pay in line with experience / proficiency and while I cannot see a way to stop market forces, the devaluation of our skills through 'pilot price wars' needs to end. My father (a major cptn) has impressed upon me from the beginning of my professional aviation career how easy the industry is (for 'is' read 'was a year ago') in comparison to his day and age, his favorite saying 'I would have given my left testicle just to fly a multi, let alone a jet with your kind of experience' is testament to that.
So anyway, back to how we can enlighten the rest of the world and better our lives.
My response of 'i'd rather have a pay cut than a job cut' was probably not in line with my true feelings. I made myself out to be one of those notorious folks who would undercut others for the sake of a job, this is not the case. I believe we all should be back to the pay scales and have the QOL that was prevalent in the 'good ol' days' and our contract needs fighting for, not undercutting.
Airplane chasing and the associated ego attached to those flying a shiny jet is pure craziness. There should be pay in line with experience / proficiency and while I cannot see a way to stop market forces, the devaluation of our skills through 'pilot price wars' needs to end. My father (a major cptn) has impressed upon me from the beginning of my professional aviation career how easy the industry is (for 'is' read 'was a year ago') in comparison to his day and age, his favorite saying 'I would have given my left testicle just to fly a multi, let alone a jet with your kind of experience' is testament to that.
So anyway, back to how we can enlighten the rest of the world and better our lives.
Good post Stringer, and welcome to APC. It's a good forum, and a chance for pilots from all walks of life to come shoot some ideas around. Your Dad sounds like a great source of wisdom... It is funny how much luck and timing play a part in this business. While I never DREAMED of getting to fly a jet when I was new at a regional, I've been pretty darned lucky in my path - and I'll never forget it. I look at guys at USAirways, who are 21 year Airbus F/O's and just feel like I'd rather get a good swift punch in the stomach! It's all about perspective, and its great to have your Dad's!
Here's to ALL of us getting paid what we are worth! I'll tell anyone who listens that it's a little ridiculous that the F/O on the 70 seat jet I commute on would be looking at a payraise to go work at Burger King with just a little overtime.
02-25-2009 | 08:08 AM
#94
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,282
Likes: 0
From: A320 Cap
hahaha, go check out the thread on the Gulfstream intern discussion. Getting paid to ride right seat for $20, $10 they wish? How about the FO paying to ride shotgun up front. And there are people that actually believe this is ok and actually thinking this doesn't hurt another pilots income. I guess the enlightening this thread is talking about not only includes the general public, but the guys/gals who work for free or pay to play.
I fully understand the draw these kids feel. Like Stinger's Dad said; at that point in your career you would go wash the CEO's socks just for a chance to sit in the cockpit, much less fly the airplane. But in that day and age, the reward at the end of the mountain you had to climb was so great, it seemed worth it at the time. Now?? Put it this way, if I had a kid, I would do everything I could to steer him/her AWAY from aviation. It's just not worth it if you are a bright lad/lass. Go make some money and fly on your off time.
I will say it again though, for those that care to listen. You won't ever have as much flying for an airline as you do in the regionals. My time at ACA (RIP) was the best I've ever had. You get into the bigger jets, and although it's undeniably cool to go pop around in that thing, after awhile you are up there staring out the window for 8-10+ hours with a bunch of old guys like me, with 30+ year flight attendants who think they should be getting paid what you are paid, and you get to some far off exotic land and are too tired to do anything but sleep! Not complaining - I wouldn't trade you for your seat, but ONLY because the money/time off is better. If the money were the same, I would LOVE to go strap on one of those E170's and pop around in a time zone or two with a young crew doing a couple of takeoff and landings a day. Enjoy. Sincerely.
02-25-2009 | 10:39 AM
#95
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: FO CRJ-200
I am glad to see some of the guys from the majors visit the regional side and have taken an interest in this thread. I invite all your comments and experience in the industry. Thank You.
There are so many good posts here and many with very valid concerns for our profession.
How about this for an idea? If there is someone here that has the time and skill, why not write up an organized, professional letter stating all of our issues and concerns. A letter we could mass e-mail to our Congressman, ALPA, friends, family, and co-workers urging them to forward it to their congressman. Leave a space at the bottom for personal additions, e.g. I qualify for food stamps (which I do) or public opinions from family ect...
With the economy the way it is and the President himself targeting “Fat Cats” last night in his address; I think now could be a good time to get people behind us and the media to spin a story to our benefit (if that’s possible). The media may just be looking for these “Fat Cat” stories considering the point in time. I would most certainly get involved in this way if there was a well thought out letter I could stand behind.
There are so many good posts here and many with very valid concerns for our profession.
How about this for an idea? If there is someone here that has the time and skill, why not write up an organized, professional letter stating all of our issues and concerns. A letter we could mass e-mail to our Congressman, ALPA, friends, family, and co-workers urging them to forward it to their congressman. Leave a space at the bottom for personal additions, e.g. I qualify for food stamps (which I do) or public opinions from family ect...
With the economy the way it is and the President himself targeting “Fat Cats” last night in his address; I think now could be a good time to get people behind us and the media to spin a story to our benefit (if that’s possible). The media may just be looking for these “Fat Cat” stories considering the point in time. I would most certainly get involved in this way if there was a well thought out letter I could stand behind.
02-25-2009 | 11:59 AM
#96
Never fly
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
From: 330B
Up front with me is Max the First officer. He makes about 23K a year, owes about 100K, is under appreciated, under paid, over worked, under represented, doesn't know what day of the week it is, hasn't seen his family in weeks, lives on water and snack boxes, and loves run on sentences. After Max does the walk around to wake up he will be flying you to PHL so he can hurry off the plane to try to catch his flight home to Denver to wash his clothes and be back the next day to do it all over again. In the meantime sit back, relax and enjoy the flight. 
That will get peoples attention.
That will get peoples attention.
02-25-2009 | 12:25 PM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Likes: 0
Either way, just for comparison $23,000.00 in 2008 had about the same buying power as $17,336.08 in 1997.
Annual inflation over this period was about 2.6%.
According to
Inflation Calculator - Value of a Dollar over Time
02-25-2009 | 12:49 PM
#98
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: FO CRJ-200
SAD, SAD, SAD. 10K, 23K, 17K What’s the difference? It's all insulting and still can't afford to live without my Mommy. Whether it’s a nickel a dime or a quarter, it still won’t buy me a sandwich.
Last edited by flight0813; 02-25-2009 at 01:01 PM.
02-25-2009 | 01:01 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
Fellow Pilots,
Airline managements are having a field day with all this pilot bickering. "You took my flying". "You are bottom feeders". "You lowered the bar". Do you really think any pilot group has any say in what aircraft and what routes and cities they fly to? Do you really think any pilot goup has been in a position in the last eight or nine years to make any contractual gains? If that was the case I'll order up a 777 and fly it to Tokyo next bid and give myself a six figure raise while I'm at it.
Face it! We are mostly Type A personalities and we dislike not being in control. We imagine that we make corporate decisions when in reality the most complex decision you'll probably make today is if you want to go for that coffee cake at Starbucks or not.
Just admit that you as a pilot have little or no say over routes, codeshares, equipment purchases etc. Start thinking about solutions to the dismal state of the industry instead of getting involved in a "cripple fight".
Get the word out. Fight like hell on your airline's next contract! Educate and encourage your fellow pilots at other airlines to do the same. I'll do what I can on my end.
Stop the blame game and name calling and hit this problem from all sides. Encourage mainline carriers to reinstate scope so I can move on from this permanent and growing "stepping stone" airline, reinstate retirement so I don't have to work at Home Depot at age 65. Regional pilots try to raise the wages, improve work rules, educate and encourage new pilots early so they understand what they are capable of as a cohesive group. Explain your viewpoint to the new pilots in the industry without insulting them.
Take a chance..reach out and help each other up instead of knocking each other down. It's getting old and is becoming embarassing and pitiful.
The next couple of years are going to be interesting. There are a lot of new contracts to be negotiated and we may finally have labor friendly arbitrators and judges for a change.
Good Luck to All,
Winglet
Airline managements are having a field day with all this pilot bickering. "You took my flying". "You are bottom feeders". "You lowered the bar". Do you really think any pilot group has any say in what aircraft and what routes and cities they fly to? Do you really think any pilot goup has been in a position in the last eight or nine years to make any contractual gains? If that was the case I'll order up a 777 and fly it to Tokyo next bid and give myself a six figure raise while I'm at it.
Face it! We are mostly Type A personalities and we dislike not being in control. We imagine that we make corporate decisions when in reality the most complex decision you'll probably make today is if you want to go for that coffee cake at Starbucks or not.
Just admit that you as a pilot have little or no say over routes, codeshares, equipment purchases etc. Start thinking about solutions to the dismal state of the industry instead of getting involved in a "cripple fight".
Get the word out. Fight like hell on your airline's next contract! Educate and encourage your fellow pilots at other airlines to do the same. I'll do what I can on my end.
Stop the blame game and name calling and hit this problem from all sides. Encourage mainline carriers to reinstate scope so I can move on from this permanent and growing "stepping stone" airline, reinstate retirement so I don't have to work at Home Depot at age 65. Regional pilots try to raise the wages, improve work rules, educate and encourage new pilots early so they understand what they are capable of as a cohesive group. Explain your viewpoint to the new pilots in the industry without insulting them.
Take a chance..reach out and help each other up instead of knocking each other down. It's getting old and is becoming embarassing and pitiful.
The next couple of years are going to be interesting. There are a lot of new contracts to be negotiated and we may finally have labor friendly arbitrators and judges for a change.
Good Luck to All,
Winglet
02-25-2009 | 03:12 PM
#100
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Fellow Pilots,
Airline managements are having a field day with all this pilot bickering. "You took my flying". "You are bottom feeders". "You lowered the bar". Do you really think any pilot group has any say in what aircraft and what routes and cities they fly to? Do you really think any pilot goup has been in a position in the last eight or nine years to make any contractual gains? If that was the case I'll order up a 777 and fly it to Tokyo next bid and give myself a six figure raise while I'm at it.
Face it! We are mostly Type A personalities and we dislike not being in control. We imagine that we make corporate decisions when in reality the most complex decision you'll probably make today is if you want to go for that coffee cake at Starbucks or not.
Just admit that you as a pilot have little or no say over routes, codeshares, equipment purchases etc. Start thinking about solutions to the dismal state of the industry instead of getting involved in a "cripple fight".
Get the word out. Fight like hell on your airline's next contract! Educate and encourage your fellow pilots at other airlines to do the same. I'll do what I can on my end.
Stop the blame game and name calling and hit this problem from all sides. Encourage mainline carriers to reinstate scope so I can move on from this permanent and growing "stepping stone" airline, reinstate retirement so I don't have to work at Home Depot at age 65. Regional pilots try to raise the wages, improve work rules, educate and encourage new pilots early so they understand what they are capable of as a cohesive group. Explain your viewpoint to the new pilots in the industry without insulting them.
Take a chance..reach out and help each other up instead of knocking each other down. It's getting old and is becoming embarassing and pitiful.
The next couple of years are going to be interesting. There are a lot of new contracts to be negotiated and we may finally have labor friendly arbitrators and judges for a change.
Good Luck to All,
Winglet
Airline managements are having a field day with all this pilot bickering. "You took my flying". "You are bottom feeders". "You lowered the bar". Do you really think any pilot group has any say in what aircraft and what routes and cities they fly to? Do you really think any pilot goup has been in a position in the last eight or nine years to make any contractual gains? If that was the case I'll order up a 777 and fly it to Tokyo next bid and give myself a six figure raise while I'm at it.
Face it! We are mostly Type A personalities and we dislike not being in control. We imagine that we make corporate decisions when in reality the most complex decision you'll probably make today is if you want to go for that coffee cake at Starbucks or not.
Just admit that you as a pilot have little or no say over routes, codeshares, equipment purchases etc. Start thinking about solutions to the dismal state of the industry instead of getting involved in a "cripple fight".
Get the word out. Fight like hell on your airline's next contract! Educate and encourage your fellow pilots at other airlines to do the same. I'll do what I can on my end.
Stop the blame game and name calling and hit this problem from all sides. Encourage mainline carriers to reinstate scope so I can move on from this permanent and growing "stepping stone" airline, reinstate retirement so I don't have to work at Home Depot at age 65. Regional pilots try to raise the wages, improve work rules, educate and encourage new pilots early so they understand what they are capable of as a cohesive group. Explain your viewpoint to the new pilots in the industry without insulting them.
Take a chance..reach out and help each other up instead of knocking each other down. It's getting old and is becoming embarassing and pitiful.
The next couple of years are going to be interesting. There are a lot of new contracts to be negotiated and we may finally have labor friendly arbitrators and judges for a change.
Good Luck to All,
Winglet
id like to sit her an wax philosophic all day about my plans to remove ALPA from my carrier. but, i know that i nor anyone else for that matter has the knowledge let alone the power to make something like that happen. i guess the fight at my airline has been reduced to removing the MEC. whether that be via a lawsuit for misrepresentation or a simple election i dont know.
i feel like theres so much to be done but i dont know how or where to start. and when push comes to shove i wonder if all the freedom fighters on here will stand and fight or run for the hills. i look at this thread and its relevance to all our lives... i feel like this is a conversation all pilots in our situation should be involved in. its disheartening to know that if i posted a thread titled Muck Fesa or BlowJet it would be overflowing with posters eger to chime in.
is this a hopeless fight, can we change this industry for the better or is the therapeutic comforts of this forum our only recourse?
