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I haven't put down anybody. I just said what I think pertaining to corp aviation selection. FL450 had an opinion too about a hiring order his CP would use. If you didn't notice, 121 was on the bottom of that list too. If you want to take that as an insult, I suppose that's your right. Frankly I don't ever care what you have to say anyhow.
He's not insulting, he is just stating the facts. No charter op is going to choose a pt121 pilot over a pt91/135 pilot unless they know the person. You on the other hand are basing your statements on the fact that pt121 pilots are inferior by using words like "stench of the airlines" , stepping over radios, no customer experience etc. You don't even have any experience to back your statements. It's not about the airlines it's about their experience. Just like the airlines would prefer prior pt121 pilots... don't get so offensive, no one cares that you don't care what other people have to say, we already know it's all about you jeforteOriginally Posted by jeforte
i have microsoft flight sim X.I haven't put down anybody. I just said what I think pertaining to corp aviation selection. FL450 had an opinion too about a hiring order his CP would use. If you didn't notice, 121 was on the bottom of that list too. If you want to take that as an insult, I suppose that's your right. Frankly I don't ever care what you have to say anyhow.
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Im entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to yours. And I do have some experience with part 91 corp ops, in addition to 135 freight. The only thing I'm lacking is 121 (not to mention military). But not to worry, I'll get that in a well pressed, wrinkle-free GoJet uniform. Originally Posted by Purpleanga
He's not insulting, he is just stating the facts. No charter op is going to choose a pt121 pilot over a pt91/135 pilot unless they know the person. You on the other hand are basing your statements on the fact that pt121 pilots are inferior by using words like "stench of the airlines" , stepping over radios, no customer experience etc. You don't even have any experience to back your statements. It's not about the airlines it's about their experience. Just like the airlines would prefer prior pt121 pilots... don't get so offensive, no one cares that you don't care what other people have to say, we already know it's all about you jeforte
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Agree.Originally Posted by mundo1
Professionalism is an attitude, a way of life – not something you turn-on or off depending on the circumstances. Many pilots wrongly believe that if they got paid more money or if they got a ton of admiration from the flying public, then their attitude (professionalism) would change. However, it does not matter whether you fly (or wash) a C 172 or command a B747; your professionalism [or lack thereof] will be evident by how you view yourself, not how others view you.
I think professionalism has a lot to do with self-respect. I for one, like to look nice. I pride myself on being well-kept, carrying myself appropriately, and acting appropriately.
I would (and will) carry that into any career I choose. It's not just about being a pilot. I felt the same way when I was dumping lavs and working the ramp during high school and college.
I know that I feel better and am more productive (both during work and on off days) after a shower, shave, and fresh change of clothes.
I can't understand how people come to work having just rolled out of bed, with no shower (matted, messed up hair), no shave (sometimes 3 or 4 days of growth), and a uniform that looks like it was balled up in a suitcase for 4 days prior.
I know the shirt may have been in a suitcase for several days, but how hard is it to hang the shirt up when you arrive in the hotel room (this removed most of the wrinkles on my shirt this evening) , and perhaps touch up with an iron or just hang up in the bathroom with the hot water running?
If you don't have the self-respect to do it for yourself, do it for the guys you fly with. I don't enjoy sitting in the cockpit with someone who looks like the last few minutes of a mis-spent life and smells like a gym sock.
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Of course, military pilots do tend to kill themselves somewhat more frequently than 121 pilots.
Joe
Joe - Originally Posted by joepilot
Every time I hear somebody complain about inexperienced three hundred hour pilots, I remember that our military puts 300 hour pilots in the right seat of 4 engine heavy jets, or in command of a single seat supersonic fighter.Of course, military pilots do tend to kill themselves somewhat more frequently than 121 pilots.
Joe
Unless you know HOW we military pilots are killing ourselves - I'd not make sweeping generalizations about comparisons between military Class A mishaps and Part 121.
USMCFLYR
I think professionalism is directly linked to whether or not a person has character - that meaning the person is who he or she claims to be when nobody is looking.
Lack of professionalism (in any industry) is probably just a symptom of something much deeper.
Lack of professionalism (in any industry) is probably just a symptom of something much deeper.
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First of all, please allow me to set this up...I've been flying for 30 years, in private, and then corporate aviation. I've had a very successful career in the Navy, and then in the outside world, so successful in fact that I was able to retire about a year ago. After a few months of retirement, I started giving some thought to applying to a regional airline, because I truly wanted to experience PROFESSIONAL flying. Although I flew for a corporate flight department that was run very professionally, I truly wanted to experience 121 flying.
I was lucky enough to get hired, and am truly glad I made this decision. However, I must admit that the one, overwhelming surprise, has been the lack of PROFESSIONALISM I see from my fellow flight crewmembers, across the board.
Guys and Girls, being a professional is not contingent on what you are being paid. Being professional is not contingent on who an associate works for. Being a professional does not depend on how much you like your management. You are either a professional, or you are not.
I am an ALPA member, and I see quite a number of my fellow members with the "Professional Union, Professional Pilot" stickers on their kit. That being said, I also have friends that fly for other airlines and for corporate flight departments, many of which are far more professional than many pilots who profess to be professionals.
Like integrity, professionalism is something YOU and only YOU get decide whether you will live it. Also like integrity, its all or nothing. It is simply not possible to act professionally towards some pilots or coworkers an unprofessionally towards others. Sorry folks, simply can't be done. You choose to lie, cheat or steal, and you have given up your integrity. You play silly games, block radio calls, and turn your back on fellow pilots, you have given up your professionalism. For ever. End of statement.
Call me an stupid, but I for one believe that WE can turn this industry around. But folks, here's a muppet news flash for you...we can't do it without the support of the public we fly for. If we continue to argue on whether we like to wear hats while we look slovenly in public, if we want to argue whether or not we deserve tips, if we are seen and heard *****ing about our wages and work conditions in public, and if we want to stick knives in the backs of other pilots because they don't work for a company that conforms to our way of thinking, we will continue to lose the support of the public.
Want a simple test of your professionalism? How many kids on your flights look up to you, and want to do what you're doing? How many people in the terminal see you and say "gee, that's a sharp looking pilot". Guys and Girls, say what you want, but if we continue to act like bus drivers, our wages and work conditions will continue to slide, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
Hopefully you did not join this profession to get rich. Hopefully you did not join hoping that every other pilot would join your union, or think exacly like you. Hopefully you did not join because you liked a particular uniform. If you did any of these, you are incredibly stupid. Me, I joined firstly because I love flying, and will until the day I die. If I have to work two jobs to continue flying, so be it. If I have to wear a stupid hat, I'm OK. The second reason I signed on was to fly with some professionals. Help me believe that I made the right decision.
This is a scary statement and is the reason some have to work 2 jobs just to get by. Until we stop thinking this way it will never change.Originally Posted by V1 Cut and Run
PROFESSIONALISM: Meticulous adherence to undeviating courtesy, honesty, and responsibility in one's dealings with customers and associates plus a level of excellence that goes over and above the commercial considerations and legal requirements.First of all, please allow me to set this up...I've been flying for 30 years, in private, and then corporate aviation. I've had a very successful career in the Navy, and then in the outside world, so successful in fact that I was able to retire about a year ago. After a few months of retirement, I started giving some thought to applying to a regional airline, because I truly wanted to experience PROFESSIONAL flying. Although I flew for a corporate flight department that was run very professionally, I truly wanted to experience 121 flying.
I was lucky enough to get hired, and am truly glad I made this decision. However, I must admit that the one, overwhelming surprise, has been the lack of PROFESSIONALISM I see from my fellow flight crewmembers, across the board.
Guys and Girls, being a professional is not contingent on what you are being paid. Being professional is not contingent on who an associate works for. Being a professional does not depend on how much you like your management. You are either a professional, or you are not.
I am an ALPA member, and I see quite a number of my fellow members with the "Professional Union, Professional Pilot" stickers on their kit. That being said, I also have friends that fly for other airlines and for corporate flight departments, many of which are far more professional than many pilots who profess to be professionals.
Like integrity, professionalism is something YOU and only YOU get decide whether you will live it. Also like integrity, its all or nothing. It is simply not possible to act professionally towards some pilots or coworkers an unprofessionally towards others. Sorry folks, simply can't be done. You choose to lie, cheat or steal, and you have given up your integrity. You play silly games, block radio calls, and turn your back on fellow pilots, you have given up your professionalism. For ever. End of statement.
Call me an stupid, but I for one believe that WE can turn this industry around. But folks, here's a muppet news flash for you...we can't do it without the support of the public we fly for. If we continue to argue on whether we like to wear hats while we look slovenly in public, if we want to argue whether or not we deserve tips, if we are seen and heard *****ing about our wages and work conditions in public, and if we want to stick knives in the backs of other pilots because they don't work for a company that conforms to our way of thinking, we will continue to lose the support of the public.
Want a simple test of your professionalism? How many kids on your flights look up to you, and want to do what you're doing? How many people in the terminal see you and say "gee, that's a sharp looking pilot". Guys and Girls, say what you want, but if we continue to act like bus drivers, our wages and work conditions will continue to slide, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
Hopefully you did not join this profession to get rich. Hopefully you did not join hoping that every other pilot would join your union, or think exacly like you. Hopefully you did not join because you liked a particular uniform. If you did any of these, you are incredibly stupid. Me, I joined firstly because I love flying, and will until the day I die. If I have to work two jobs to continue flying, so be it. If I have to wear a stupid hat, I'm OK. The second reason I signed on was to fly with some professionals. Help me believe that I made the right decision.
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Are you in a pool, is that why you were asking about it on the other thread?Originally Posted by jeforte
Im entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to yours. And I do have some experience with part 91 corp ops, in addition to 135 freight. The only thing I'm lacking is 121 (not to mention military). But not to worry, I'll get that in a well pressed, wrinkle-free GoJet uniform.
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I dress as best as possible everyday and yet I was never treated as well and with such respect as I was after Sully took a drive in the drink. Go figure.
Well said. Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
It should also be mentioned that the customer experience/professionalism shown by pilots is directly proportional to the environment of professional aviation. Back in the day there use to be glass plates and silverware. Now there's home made jean shorts and camo on a $49 ticket. When lowering the quality to increase the quantity as well as market demographic it's almost impossible to maintain the amount of professionalism once shown. Use to be that pilots were regarded by the public as highly skilled professionals that were admired by all. Now that we've been kicked down a few notches what's expected? I arrive at a gate and instead of being greeted with smiles and parents wanting to introduce their children to you because you're so inspiring I'm now met with a "do we really have to fly in such a small plane?", "why are we delayed my last flight went through weather?", "you people think that just because you're wearing a uniform you can cut in line", and so on. Due to the vast expansion of aviation not only has the quality of the service been deteriorated but so has the quality of the pax. The mentality has been changed from "I'm so privileged to ride on an aircraft" to "maybe if I complain hard enough I'll get comped something". We give an inch and they take a yard. The people don't respect us because they see our profession as nothing more than a bus driver now. They think technology does it all. It's easy because we are professionals. While unfortunate incidents it's events like Sioux City and Sully in the Hudson that remind the world exactly why we're there and the massive burden we're capable of carrying. I dress as best as possible everyday and yet I was never treated as well and with such respect as I was after Sully took a drive in the drink. Go figure.
But I think the bus driver comparison is overrated, we turn screws on an assembly line. They tell us how they want it done and then we're supposed to do it that way. If they say turn it, turn it, if they say don't turn it, don't turn it.
As to Part 121, 121 Regional, 135, 91 and military, guess what, none of that matters one bit. A majority of the time they want you already typed and/or to be friends with someone already working there, preferably both. Thats why you see some operations that are very heavy either on the military, major, 91 or 135 side with little intermixing. And don't think for a minute they always hire the best people for the job. It depends 80% on the biases of the one in charge of hiring more than the quality and background of the applicant... unless of course the boss is your average owner and they just want someone typed AND current.
I've noticed at my new airline that the professionalism here is severely lacking compared to my old airline. I don't know if it should be blamed on the poverty level pay, the bad work rules, or what, but the pilots generally don't seem to take much pride in what they do. Lots of people here don't shave during an entire 4-day. Their clothes don't fit them. They don't care about the passengers' wants and needs. They wear backpacks and have mismatched color bags.
This is not everybody at the airline, but it seems awfully prevalent. I for one still take some amount of pride in what I do and I try to iron my shirts before a trip, shave every morning, shower, and look my best. I don't wear my Ipod when I walk around the airport, though I do listen to it when I'm on a plane jumpseating or deadheading somewhere. Really though, I agree a little bit with everything that's been said in this thread. It does get harder to act professional with every month that goes by with horrible pay and work rules. The incentive is not there. At the same time, it's my personal motivations that cause me to try to act professional, regardless of the money I'm making. The big thing I'm guilty of is letting passengers know how little I make at my job. If they want to ask me about the airline pilot life, they're gonna hear the truth.
This is not everybody at the airline, but it seems awfully prevalent. I for one still take some amount of pride in what I do and I try to iron my shirts before a trip, shave every morning, shower, and look my best. I don't wear my Ipod when I walk around the airport, though I do listen to it when I'm on a plane jumpseating or deadheading somewhere. Really though, I agree a little bit with everything that's been said in this thread. It does get harder to act professional with every month that goes by with horrible pay and work rules. The incentive is not there. At the same time, it's my personal motivations that cause me to try to act professional, regardless of the money I'm making. The big thing I'm guilty of is letting passengers know how little I make at my job. If they want to ask me about the airline pilot life, they're gonna hear the truth.
