Are there any PROFESSIONAL pilots left?
04-14-2009 | 05:44 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: New Hire
Have you ever looked at the official scab list? There are four pilots on there from a regional carrier and the remaining 5,907 or so are all major airline pilots. Stop spreading entirely accurate information.
04-14-2009 | 08:09 AM
#23
Thread Starter
On Reserve
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Dassault DA-10 CA, CRJ FO
Ah, so many points to ponder...
Labbats, I'd be glad to post again in a year, but my professionalism is not in question, so I doubt that another year and few hundred hours of flying and another pay raise will have any impact at all on how I look, act, or treat my fellow pilots and coworkers.
As for the attitude of "you get what you paid for" I would only hope that we as a group can realize how dangerous that attitude is. The guys and gals sitting in the big offices making the decisions don't pay us what we're worth or respect us, so we in turn become unprofessional in appearance and deed, because "they get what they pay for". They in turn see unprofessional pilots asking for additional benefits and raises, which they can't justify based on their impression of our performance. It is a viscious circle.
Who you are, how you treat others, and how professional you are is solely a function of your own mettle, not a result of how others treat you. It is a true professional who can remain sharp and focused in spite of being underpaid or ill treated. This is how we win contract negotiations and secure the trust of the flying public, not by playing silly reindeer games with one another.
If I'm asked why my shoes are so shiney by an "old salt", I'd probably just say "because I'm proud of what I do, and I want to look proud". Again, how I look and act is not a reflection on my pay, or my company management, or what mood I'm in that day. It is a reflection of who I am. That does not change.
See you in a year!
Labbats, I'd be glad to post again in a year, but my professionalism is not in question, so I doubt that another year and few hundred hours of flying and another pay raise will have any impact at all on how I look, act, or treat my fellow pilots and coworkers.
As for the attitude of "you get what you paid for" I would only hope that we as a group can realize how dangerous that attitude is. The guys and gals sitting in the big offices making the decisions don't pay us what we're worth or respect us, so we in turn become unprofessional in appearance and deed, because "they get what they pay for". They in turn see unprofessional pilots asking for additional benefits and raises, which they can't justify based on their impression of our performance. It is a viscious circle.
Who you are, how you treat others, and how professional you are is solely a function of your own mettle, not a result of how others treat you. It is a true professional who can remain sharp and focused in spite of being underpaid or ill treated. This is how we win contract negotiations and secure the trust of the flying public, not by playing silly reindeer games with one another.
If I'm asked why my shoes are so shiney by an "old salt", I'd probably just say "because I'm proud of what I do, and I want to look proud". Again, how I look and act is not a reflection on my pay, or my company management, or what mood I'm in that day. It is a reflection of who I am. That does not change.
See you in a year!
04-14-2009 | 08:34 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: Thrill Seat
I respectfully disagree
121 major/legacy and 121 regional are sadly, more often than not, different breeds. There are, however, exceptions.
* If I were a CP for a corp flight dept, I'd look first at those with corp experience (91), then 121 major/MILITARY, 135 charter/freight, and finally 121 regional. More than likely in that order, but my opinion is admittedly inexperienced.
121 major/legacy and 121 regional are sadly, more often than not, different breeds. There are, however, exceptions.
* If I were a CP for a corp flight dept, I'd look first at those with corp experience (91), then 121 major/MILITARY, 135 charter/freight, and finally 121 regional. More than likely in that order, but my opinion is admittedly inexperienced.
135 pilots, 91 Pilots, military, 121.... (notice there is no distinction on what type of 121 because corp world doesn't keep up with the politics of 121 world, we just visit APF for entertainment
)but then again i guess your post was if you were CP
04-14-2009 | 08:44 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
From: 777
Short answer, YES, there are plenty of professionals left in this business, Most, not all, of the guys I work with are true professionals. The industry as a whole, or hole if you will, there are few.
Cheers,
WG
Cheers,
WG
PROFESSIONALISM: Meticulous adherence to undeviating courtesy, honesty, and responsibility in one's dealings with customers and associates plus a level of excellence that goes over and above the commercial considerations and legal requirements.
First of all, please allow me to set this up...I've been flying for 30 years, in private, and then corporate aviation. I've had a very successful career in the Navy, and then in the outside world, so successful in fact that I was able to retire about a year ago. After a few months of retirement, I started giving some thought to applying to a regional airline, because I truly wanted to experience PROFESSIONAL flying. Although I flew for a corporate flight department that was run very professionally, I truly wanted to experience 121 flying.
I was lucky enough to get hired, and am truly glad I made this decision. However, I must admit that the one, overwhelming surprise, has been the lack of PROFESSIONALISM I see from my fellow flight crewmembers, across the board.
Guys and Girls, being a professional is not contingent on what you are being paid. Being professional is not contingent on who an associate works for. Being a professional does not depend on how much you like your management. You are either a professional, or you are not.
I am an ALPA member, and I see quite a number of my fellow members with the "Professional Union, Professional Pilot" stickers on their kit. That being said, I also have friends that fly for other airlines and for corporate flight departments, many of which are far more professional than many pilots who profess to be professionals.
Like integrity, professionalism is something YOU and only YOU get decide whether you will live it. Also like integrity, its all or nothing. It is simply not possible to act professionally towards some pilots or coworkers an unprofessionally towards others. Sorry folks, simply can't be done. You choose to lie, cheat or steal, and you have given up your integrity. You play silly games, block radio calls, and turn your back on fellow pilots, you have given up your professionalism. For ever. End of statement.
Call me an stupid, but I for one believe that WE can turn this industry around. But folks, here's a muppet news flash for you...we can't do it without the support of the public we fly for. If we continue to argue on whether we like to wear hats while we look slovenly in public, if we want to argue whether or not we deserve tips, if we are seen and heard *****ing about our wages and work conditions in public, and if we want to stick knives in the backs of other pilots because they don't work for a company that conforms to our way of thinking, we will continue to lose the support of the public.
Want a simple test of your professionalism? How many kids on your flights look up to you, and want to do what you're doing? How many people in the terminal see you and say "gee, that's a sharp looking pilot". Guys and Girls, say what you want, but if we continue to act like bus drivers, our wages and work conditions will continue to slide, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
Hopefully you did not join this profession to get rich. Hopefully you did not join hoping that every other pilot would join your union, or think exacly like you. Hopefully you did not join because you liked a particular uniform. If you did any of these, you are incredibly stupid. Me, I joined firstly because I love flying, and will until the day I die. If I have to work two jobs to continue flying, so be it. If I have to wear a stupid hat, I'm OK. The second reason I signed on was to fly with some professionals. Help me believe that I made the right decision.
First of all, please allow me to set this up...I've been flying for 30 years, in private, and then corporate aviation. I've had a very successful career in the Navy, and then in the outside world, so successful in fact that I was able to retire about a year ago. After a few months of retirement, I started giving some thought to applying to a regional airline, because I truly wanted to experience PROFESSIONAL flying. Although I flew for a corporate flight department that was run very professionally, I truly wanted to experience 121 flying.
I was lucky enough to get hired, and am truly glad I made this decision. However, I must admit that the one, overwhelming surprise, has been the lack of PROFESSIONALISM I see from my fellow flight crewmembers, across the board.
Guys and Girls, being a professional is not contingent on what you are being paid. Being professional is not contingent on who an associate works for. Being a professional does not depend on how much you like your management. You are either a professional, or you are not.
I am an ALPA member, and I see quite a number of my fellow members with the "Professional Union, Professional Pilot" stickers on their kit. That being said, I also have friends that fly for other airlines and for corporate flight departments, many of which are far more professional than many pilots who profess to be professionals.
Like integrity, professionalism is something YOU and only YOU get decide whether you will live it. Also like integrity, its all or nothing. It is simply not possible to act professionally towards some pilots or coworkers an unprofessionally towards others. Sorry folks, simply can't be done. You choose to lie, cheat or steal, and you have given up your integrity. You play silly games, block radio calls, and turn your back on fellow pilots, you have given up your professionalism. For ever. End of statement.
Call me an stupid, but I for one believe that WE can turn this industry around. But folks, here's a muppet news flash for you...we can't do it without the support of the public we fly for. If we continue to argue on whether we like to wear hats while we look slovenly in public, if we want to argue whether or not we deserve tips, if we are seen and heard *****ing about our wages and work conditions in public, and if we want to stick knives in the backs of other pilots because they don't work for a company that conforms to our way of thinking, we will continue to lose the support of the public.
Want a simple test of your professionalism? How many kids on your flights look up to you, and want to do what you're doing? How many people in the terminal see you and say "gee, that's a sharp looking pilot". Guys and Girls, say what you want, but if we continue to act like bus drivers, our wages and work conditions will continue to slide, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
Hopefully you did not join this profession to get rich. Hopefully you did not join hoping that every other pilot would join your union, or think exacly like you. Hopefully you did not join because you liked a particular uniform. If you did any of these, you are incredibly stupid. Me, I joined firstly because I love flying, and will until the day I die. If I have to work two jobs to continue flying, so be it. If I have to wear a stupid hat, I'm OK. The second reason I signed on was to fly with some professionals. Help me believe that I made the right decision.
04-14-2009 | 08:47 AM
#26
Che Guevara
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Likes: 0
It should also be mentioned that the customer experience/professionalism shown by pilots is directly proportional to the environment of professional aviation. Back in the day there use to be glass plates and silverware. Now there's home made jean shorts and camo on a $49 ticket. When lowering the quality to increase the quantity as well as market demographic it's almost impossible to maintain the amount of professionalism once shown. Use to be that pilots were regarded by the public as highly skilled professionals that were admired by all. Now that we've been kicked down a few notches what's expected? I arrive at a gate and instead of being greeted with smiles and parents wanting to introduce their children to you because you're so inspiring I'm now met with a "do we really have to fly in such a small plane?", "why are we delayed my last flight went through weather?", "you people think that just because you're wearing a uniform you can cut in line", and so on. Due to the vast expansion of aviation not only has the quality of the service been deteriorated but so has the quality of the pax. The mentality has been changed from "I'm so privileged to ride on an aircraft" to "maybe if I complain hard enough I'll get comped something". We give an inch and they take a yard. The people don't respect us because they see our profession as nothing more than a bus driver now. They think technology does it all. It's easy because we are professionals. While unfortunate incidents it's events like Sioux City and Sully in the Hudson that remind the world exactly why we're there and the massive burden we're capable of carrying.
I dress as best as possible everyday and yet I was never treated as well and with such respect as I was after Sully took a drive in the drink. Go figure.
I dress as best as possible everyday and yet I was never treated as well and with such respect as I was after Sully took a drive in the drink. Go figure.
04-14-2009 | 09:18 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Professionalism isn't something that comes from the outside. It's internal. I don't care what the traveling public thinks because they don't care right up to the point where the **** hits the fan. I care about how I proform my job. I care about how I fly. I even care about the appearance that I show to the world. I will proform my job to the best of my abilities. I won't let the performance of others to dictate the the job I do. My CEO may be a cheat, my co pilot may be grumpy, my cabin crew can be bickering, and my profession may be on the slide, but I will be a professional. Not because of the customer, but because I expect it from myself.
04-14-2009 | 09:34 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,530
Likes: 0
you asked me in what order i would LOOK, and i told you. i never said the word "useless", or "undeserving" in my post. you did that. always on defense.....
i wrote "finally regional" b/c it seems some regional pilots tend to lack with customer service abilities, and that is what is most stressed in a corp aviation environment. instead of giggling about blocked radio calls or jumpseat wars, the focus is on the owner/operator/pax....where it should be.
it had nothing to do with stick and rudder. try a touch of professionalism (what the thread was about in the first place) and objectivity.
i wrote "finally regional" b/c it seems some regional pilots tend to lack with customer service abilities, and that is what is most stressed in a corp aviation environment. instead of giggling about blocked radio calls or jumpseat wars, the focus is on the owner/operator/pax....where it should be.
it had nothing to do with stick and rudder. try a touch of professionalism (what the thread was about in the first place) and objectivity.
04-14-2009 | 09:48 AM
#29
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
From: PIC
I haven't put down anybody. I just said what I think pertaining to corp aviation selection. FL450 had an opinion too about a hiring order his CP would use. If you didn't notice, 121 was on the bottom of that list too. If you want to take that as an insult, I suppose that's your right. Frankly I don't ever care what you have to say anyhow.
04-14-2009 | 10:20 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,386
Likes: 0
From: 320 F.O.
I too have worked both 121, 135 and 91. I have operated my own two aircraft flight department Part 91 and I have to say the level of proffessionalism I believe should be upheld in the aviation/pilot community is equal among the all types of pilots (91,121,135). I have also met pilots in all three world which I am embarrassed to say share the same profession as I do. There were some guys at Business Express that were complete nightmares and also some guys in the 135/91 world that make Charles Manson look like a choir boy. That is the human nature side of what we do and a true professional deals with all personality types and operates as safe and effeciantly as he can with what he has to work with. The point is that professional pilots need to be helping each other out not stabing each other in the back. As for the union non union comparison I have to say I like non union more. I believe that I am strong enough in the cockpit and with my negotiating skills to better my self well beyond what a union can/has. I also believe the greatest aspect of union pilot group is that the union saves pilots from there piers more then management (although managemnet sounds like a nightmare if you only read APC). Good luck to all.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
