CRJ first trip @ FL410
12-16-2009 | 06:21 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
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From: CL-65 captain
And another thing.... I have talked to many folks who were at FL410 in the -200 before the FL370 restriction went into place and most of them said it was a bad idea. The margins are very tight there on the -200 and even the brave ones said the airplane just didn't belong up there. My personal record is FL390 before the restriction went into place and the check airman I was flying with (on a ferry flight) said, "Now you've seen it, don't do it again". We stayed on profile the whole time.
12-16-2009 | 06:47 AM
#22
ULTP-Ultra Low Tier Pilot
Joined: Dec 2007
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I had the Saab at FL250 once, and it rocked!!
Thats right, I said 25,000!
Thats right, I said 25,000!
12-16-2009 | 06:51 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
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From: CL-65 captain
12-16-2009 | 07:32 AM
#25
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All right, let's have a debate! 
I have over 1200 hours in CRJ-200s and can tell you from personal experience the -200 does just fine in the mid-30s. Sure it gets its "climb restricted jet" moniker honestly, and you'll never get there at ISA+ shortly after a 53.0k takeoff weight full of pax/bags/gas...but if the aircraft weight is right, ISA temps are favorable, and there is some speed on the wing it'll do just fine.
You have a very valid point there. The -200, like any underwinged/underpowered CL600-series airplane, doesn't like to go high unless conditions are favorable. That said, if conditions *are* favorable (long leg, mid-weights, ISA temps, etc) there's no reason why the airplane cannot be safely operated at higher, more efficient altitudes.
That's the only point I'm trying to make - if a knowledgeable, well-trained flight crew is driving a -200 series stretch Challenger and understands the limitations of the airplanes and basic high-altitude aerodynamics then the airplane can get up there every day and twice on Sunday (although it will take all day Saturday to get there)
I have over 1200 hours in CRJ-200s and can tell you from personal experience the -200 does just fine in the mid-30s. Sure it gets its "climb restricted jet" moniker honestly, and you'll never get there at ISA+ shortly after a 53.0k takeoff weight full of pax/bags/gas...but if the aircraft weight is right, ISA temps are favorable, and there is some speed on the wing it'll do just fine.
You have a very valid point there. The -200, like any underwinged/underpowered CL600-series airplane, doesn't like to go high unless conditions are favorable. That said, if conditions *are* favorable (long leg, mid-weights, ISA temps, etc) there's no reason why the airplane cannot be safely operated at higher, more efficient altitudes.
That's the only point I'm trying to make - if a knowledgeable, well-trained flight crew is driving a -200 series stretch Challenger and understands the limitations of the airplanes and basic high-altitude aerodynamics then the airplane can get up there every day and twice on Sunday (although it will take all day Saturday to get there)
All very good points.
In 1998 or 1999, I don't remember exactly, I met Bob Hoover at Oskosh, WI. Really nice man. Very humble, very sociable. (Unlike another well know pilot whose name sounds like "Yuck Cheager")
At that time I met Mr. Hoover, I asked him if he had any advice for a private pilot (at the time) like myself. I will never forget his response, his Golden Rule of aviation if you will -
"Always keep a little extra in your back pocket, you never know when you might need it."
Sage advice for aviation, or anything else we do in life for that matter. I will always do my best to never let Mr. Hoover down.
For me now as a professional aviator, the CRJ200 at high flight levels under most wight and temperature conditions that we operate them for revenue, this aircraft violates this "Golden Rule".
12-16-2009 | 08:06 AM
#27
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What do the big boeings hold in FPM up to the high altitudes. The ERJ can hold 1000 FPM up to 370 on a hot day. What does a 76, 73, airbus do?
12-16-2009 | 08:13 AM
#28
Doing One Pilot's Job
Joined: Sep 2005
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At FL410 and ISA, 0.74M is roughly 217 KCAS with 0.77M being roughly 227 KIAS and 0.70M being 204 KCAS.
In the case of FLG3701, they started their climb at FL370 & 200 KCAS or roughly 0.64M and began a 0.1kt/second deceleration in the climb @ FL380 until level-off at FL410, at which time they were at 165 KCAS (0.575M) and still decelerating. At 150 KCAS (0.525M), the shaker fired.
A stunning display of ignorance regarding their aircraft's capabilities and high-altitude aerodynamics no doubt...but these guys would have been just fine if they'd have accelerated to & maintained profile climb mach speed.
In the case of FLG3701, they started their climb at FL370 & 200 KCAS or roughly 0.64M and began a 0.1kt/second deceleration in the climb @ FL380 until level-off at FL410, at which time they were at 165 KCAS (0.575M) and still decelerating. At 150 KCAS (0.525M), the shaker fired.
A stunning display of ignorance regarding their aircraft's capabilities and high-altitude aerodynamics no doubt...but these guys would have been just fine if they'd have accelerated to & maintained profile climb mach speed.
12-16-2009 | 08:30 AM
#29
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From: FO
Uh...yes.
Considering in the Original posters picture, the HS cue is at 250 and the low speed cue is not even visible and the 180kt tick mark is becoming visible, I can say for certain it is at least 70kts IAS.
Also as Boiler pointed out, the shaker fired at 150kts in the PCL accident. so wala 250-150=100 kts. Also if we are splitting hairs the shaker isn't actually the stall anyway, jsut the indication of an approach to the stall margin, so the stall speed is a few kts less.
Been up there before, it works fine, if you the conditions are right and you don't try to "zoom climb" it up there and it is no where near 15-20 kts between low and high buffet
You won't stall it if you
1. don't zoom climb the thing up to 410. Stay on the front side of the damn drag curve.
2. Once up there, if the IAS starts decreasing you need to correct it asap...almost certainly by descending. People get in trouble up there by trying to salvage it and there is no way to get the speed back at that altitude other than to descend.
So yes that is my final answer...
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