Republic - Three RAH subsidiaries, one list.
01-12-2010, 03:27 PM
#21
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by TillerEnvy
Apparently you don't know much. Heard of Alleghany Mohawk?? So, you think the bankrupt and near bankrupt company should have it's employees placed above the purchasing company employees? Wow, makes sense to me. Luckily for everyone, an arbitrator will make the decision.
01-12-2010, 03:59 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 722
Originally Posted by TillerEnvy
Apparently you don't know much. Heard of Alleghany Mohawk?? So, you think the bankrupt and near bankrupt company should have it's employees placed above the purchasing company employees? Wow, makes sense to me. Luckily for everyone, an arbitrator will make the decision.
Originally Posted by Nevets
Nothing stops the people negotiating the list from stapling anyone. And it doesn't stop the arbitrator as well. It just needs to be "fair and equitable." And that is defined by those negotiating it or the arbitrator.
01-12-2010, 04:10 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
Originally Posted by Rightseat Ballast
I honestly don't think there is such a thing as a fair solution in this case. The big gotcha to any solution is that there will still be about 400-500 pilots on furlough after the integration. No group wants their pilots to end up on the bottom. Each company can make a valid case as to why they should not bear the brunt of the furloughs. Any solution I come up with invariably leaves one group holding the bag more so that the other players.
Here is my most recent opinion. It changes as I reconsider other facts, and is by no means sanctioned by any union rep or single other pilot at my company. I think you first have to separate active from furloughed pilots. I feel that the Midwest list ought to be considered from the time when they had 16 717's on property, not just 9.
Next, I think you have to separate captains from first officers. In this case, you have to assume that everyone who could hold captain does hold captain. Senior FO's would be given hypothetical captain status, and junior captains may be knocked back to F/O for seniority consideration. With active captains isolated, you then go by date of hire. That is how the top of the list would look. Mostly Midwest and Frontier guys at the top, with the eldest RAH lifers speckled in. In general though, RAH and Lynx captains would be beneath Midwest and frontier captains.
Next, take your active first officers and do the same...DOH among this group. YOu would end up with a similar striation of the different pilot groups.
Finally, furloughs would be integrated by original DOH as well.
This would serve to keep most everyone in their same seat and equipment. Frontier and Midwest might have some shuffling, but most everyone would stay on the Airbus and 190. RAH'ers would end up on the 170's and 145's, and Lynx'ers would mostly remain on the Dash. People could bid for whichever aircraft they choose, so some odd cases may exist. This would also, in general terms, assure that Midwest and Frontier FO's would have the first access to upgrades. Would this mean that RAH and Lynx captains have first access to Airbus and 190 captain seats? Yes. Nothing is perfect, but this would preserve pay for the most senior in each seat, protect many from displacement, and give recognition to both DOH and relative seniority. Constructive input and criticism is appreciated, but please don't reinterpret my words into something other than this being one pilot's fleeting idea.
Here is my most recent opinion. It changes as I reconsider other facts, and is by no means sanctioned by any union rep or single other pilot at my company. I think you first have to separate active from furloughed pilots. I feel that the Midwest list ought to be considered from the time when they had 16 717's on property, not just 9.
Next, I think you have to separate captains from first officers. In this case, you have to assume that everyone who could hold captain does hold captain. Senior FO's would be given hypothetical captain status, and junior captains may be knocked back to F/O for seniority consideration. With active captains isolated, you then go by date of hire. That is how the top of the list would look. Mostly Midwest and Frontier guys at the top, with the eldest RAH lifers speckled in. In general though, RAH and Lynx captains would be beneath Midwest and frontier captains.
Next, take your active first officers and do the same...DOH among this group. YOu would end up with a similar striation of the different pilot groups.
Finally, furloughs would be integrated by original DOH as well.
This would serve to keep most everyone in their same seat and equipment. Frontier and Midwest might have some shuffling, but most everyone would stay on the Airbus and 190. RAH'ers would end up on the 170's and 145's, and Lynx'ers would mostly remain on the Dash. People could bid for whichever aircraft they choose, so some odd cases may exist. This would also, in general terms, assure that Midwest and Frontier FO's would have the first access to upgrades. Would this mean that RAH and Lynx captains have first access to Airbus and 190 captain seats? Yes. Nothing is perfect, but this would preserve pay for the most senior in each seat, protect many from displacement, and give recognition to both DOH and relative seniority. Constructive input and criticism is appreciated, but please don't reinterpret my words into something other than this being one pilot's fleeting idea.
Sound pretty fair to me, but I think your EXCO thinks alot different then you.
01-12-2010, 05:37 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,097
Originally Posted by mccube5
of course it doesnt make sense to you, you have something to lose in that situation. and yes i do think that guys who have put in the time to get to that point in their career should be ahead of regional FO's involved in this situation, none of whom have more than 5 years at the company. i won't give you the bankrupt or almost bankrupt argument, the bottom line is the companies were still operating at the time of acquisition.
second what he said. AM would have no bearing if the NC's were to agree to something on their own.
second what he said. AM would have no bearing if the NC's were to agree to something on their own.
01-12-2010, 05:53 PM
#25
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: Chautauqua
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by mccube5
if you feel that consideration should be given to those guys the same principle should be applied to the former YX'ers. no way any of the furloughed RAH guys should end up above anyone on the final list. heck i even think that all the guys from F9 and YX should be placed above every FO on the RAH list, but what do i know.
I agree with you they should but I doubt it will play out that way. The ultimate victory would involve everyone being ****ed off about how it goes down. That would mean everyone gave a little.
I have a feeling that I will get recalled soon and likely be on reserve for some time. And frankly thats how it should be as the YX furloughs come back and I hope for their sake they ARE senior to me so they don't have to spend any time on reserve. Those guys deserve it since they have put in their time and had a "real airline" job prior to all the management shenanigans. This can be one cruel industry.
01-12-2010, 06:52 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by Rightseat Ballast
I honestly don't think there is such a thing as a fair solution in this case. The big gotcha to any solution is that there will still be about 400-500 pilots on furlough after the integration. No group wants their pilots to end up on the bottom. Each company can make a valid case as to why they should not bear the brunt of the furloughs. Any solution I come up with invariably leaves one group holding the bag more so that the other players.
Here is my most recent opinion. It changes as I reconsider other facts, and is by no means sanctioned by any union rep or single other pilot at my company. I think you first have to separate active from furloughed pilots. I feel that the Midwest list ought to be considered from the time when they had 16 717's on property, not just 9.
Next, I think you have to separate captains from first officers. In this case, you have to assume that everyone who could hold captain does hold captain. Senior FO's would be given hypothetical captain status, and junior captains may be knocked back to F/O for seniority consideration. With active captains isolated, you then go by date of hire. That is how the top of the list would look. Mostly Midwest and Frontier guys at the top, with the eldest RAH lifers speckled in. In general though, RAH and Lynx captains would be beneath Midwest and frontier captains.
Next, take your active first officers and do the same...DOH among this group. YOu would end up with a similar striation of the different pilot groups.
Finally, furloughs would be integrated by original DOH as well.
This would serve to keep most everyone in their same seat and equipment. Frontier and Midwest might have some shuffling, but most everyone would stay on the Airbus and 190. RAH'ers would end up on the 170's and 145's, and Lynx'ers would mostly remain on the Dash. People could bid for whichever aircraft they choose, so some odd cases may exist. This would also, in general terms, assure that Midwest and Frontier FO's would have the first access to upgrades. Would this mean that RAH and Lynx captains have first access to Airbus and 190 captain seats? Yes. Nothing is perfect, but this would preserve pay for the most senior in each seat, protect many from displacement, and give recognition to both DOH and relative seniority. Constructive input and criticism is appreciated, but please don't reinterpret my words into something other than this being one pilot's fleeting idea.
Here is my most recent opinion. It changes as I reconsider other facts, and is by no means sanctioned by any union rep or single other pilot at my company. I think you first have to separate active from furloughed pilots. I feel that the Midwest list ought to be considered from the time when they had 16 717's on property, not just 9.
Next, I think you have to separate captains from first officers. In this case, you have to assume that everyone who could hold captain does hold captain. Senior FO's would be given hypothetical captain status, and junior captains may be knocked back to F/O for seniority consideration. With active captains isolated, you then go by date of hire. That is how the top of the list would look. Mostly Midwest and Frontier guys at the top, with the eldest RAH lifers speckled in. In general though, RAH and Lynx captains would be beneath Midwest and frontier captains.
Next, take your active first officers and do the same...DOH among this group. YOu would end up with a similar striation of the different pilot groups.
Finally, furloughs would be integrated by original DOH as well.
This would serve to keep most everyone in their same seat and equipment. Frontier and Midwest might have some shuffling, but most everyone would stay on the Airbus and 190. RAH'ers would end up on the 170's and 145's, and Lynx'ers would mostly remain on the Dash. People could bid for whichever aircraft they choose, so some odd cases may exist. This would also, in general terms, assure that Midwest and Frontier FO's would have the first access to upgrades. Would this mean that RAH and Lynx captains have first access to Airbus and 190 captain seats? Yes. Nothing is perfect, but this would preserve pay for the most senior in each seat, protect many from displacement, and give recognition to both DOH and relative seniority. Constructive input and criticism is appreciated, but please don't reinterpret my words into something other than this being one pilot's fleeting idea.
01-13-2010, 02:54 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Does this improve it, or make it worse?
Originally Posted by Rightseat Ballast
. . . Any solution I come up with invariably leaves one group holding the bag more so that the other players. . . .
This would also, in general terms, assure that Midwest and Frontier FO's would have the first access to upgrades. Would this mean that RAH and Lynx captains have first access to Airbus and 190 captain seats? Yes. Nothing is perfect, but this would preserve pay for the most senior in each seat, protect many from displacement, and give recognition to both DOH and relative seniority. Constructive input and criticism is appreciated, but please don't reinterpret my words into something other than this being one pilot's fleeting idea.
This would also, in general terms, assure that Midwest and Frontier FO's would have the first access to upgrades. Would this mean that RAH and Lynx captains have first access to Airbus and 190 captain seats? Yes. Nothing is perfect, but this would preserve pay for the most senior in each seat, protect many from displacement, and give recognition to both DOH and relative seniority. Constructive input and criticism is appreciated, but please don't reinterpret my words into something other than this being one pilot's fleeting idea.
The solution? Hard to say. Maybe go with the above proposed integration, but offer super seniority (ahead of any RAH or Lynx CA) to the former YX and F9 FO's for the purposes of bidding the left seat of aircraft larger than an E-175 only. RAH FO's expected to get the chance to bid to a large fleet of E-175 and smaller jets as most of the RAH CA's left for bigger and better airlines, and shouldn't watch as their upgrade goes to a YX or F9 FO who expected to sit in the right seat for at least 5-7 years minimum waiting for a left seat. So, make the F9 and YX FO's wait it out for the left seat of any jet (can't go to the left seat of any jet until an opening in the left seat of a EMB-175+ aircraft opens up), while the RAH and Lynx FO's don't have to wait it out, but won't be able to bid into large aircraft they never expected to see on property either. The RAH and Lynx CA's then get to either sit in the seat they're in now (all they expected to get prior to the merger), or they can go to the right seat (or even the left seat) of something larger than a 175 only if the YX and F9 FO's pass up on the opportunity first, preferring to go to the smaller equipment (E-175 and below) for whatever reason. Ultimately, the guys who benefit most are the young RAH and Lynx CA's who, if they stay and RAH/F9/YX sustains itself, will end up as the senior pilots in the company as the older YX and F9 CA's retire, never having to suffer going back to the bottom of the list as an FO at the 'bigger and better' company - be a line holding CA on the E-175 waiting for the left seat of the Airbus instead of sitting reserve as an FO on the Airbus. Of course, if you stay, the whole company could go under too. With risk comes reward. I guess everyone but the RAH guys benefit/lose some too, as they didn't expect to get access to all the bases and opportunities of this new firm, but didn't expect to potentially be based anywhere but DEN or MKE (is this a gain or a loss, depends on whether you went to your firm primarily for the base, which many did. If so, welcome to the integration party, hope you enjoy the left seat of an RJ in Indy!).
Anyway, this all makes sense to me, and seems to preserve the good start that 'Rightseat Ballast' made, while protecting the career expectations of everyone a bit better. I'm sure I screwed it up somewhere (base protection issues, for starters), so, please, feel free to improve upon it (or throw it out completely) - on an internet forum, I would expect nothing less.
In my dreams, this thread actually yields something positive and the arbitrator or union folks actually take it seriously.
01-13-2010, 04:48 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by Rightseat Ballast
Nope, I didn't make enough people spitting mad with my post. I appear to have a long way to go!
01-13-2010, 05:30 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: B756 FO
Posts: 1,288
Originally Posted by Dirty Rat
I don't want to hear that attitude from you when you are cranking my gear. The YX and F9 pilots do deserve higher. Why? None of us asked to work for your company. You bought us, you bought our experience and seniority. Deal with it Son.
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