ANPRM: New 121 Pilot Certification Rqmts.
02-21-2010 | 11:15 PM
#81
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I think you meant "savants." I don't believe "sophonts" is a word.
Bringing up Einstein and "the richest guy in the world," et cetera, does little to refute my original statement--there is a difference between a self-educated person who starts college and drops out because they have world-changing or profitable ideas, and the average person who simply just doesn't go to college.
And don't bring up the money factor--government grants, extremely low-interest student loans, and work study jobs are so widely available anyone with financial need shouldn't have a problem if they have the mental capacity to fill out a fafsa form.
Of course, you could just go ahead and keep attacking a four-year degree requirement--management loves it when we support things that are against our best interest!
Bringing up Einstein and "the richest guy in the world," et cetera, does little to refute my original statement--there is a difference between a self-educated person who starts college and drops out because they have world-changing or profitable ideas, and the average person who simply just doesn't go to college.
And don't bring up the money factor--government grants, extremely low-interest student loans, and work study jobs are so widely available anyone with financial need shouldn't have a problem if they have the mental capacity to fill out a fafsa form.
Of course, you could just go ahead and keep attacking a four-year degree requirement--management loves it when we support things that are against our best interest!
Yes, and I don't think Albert Einstein went to school but taught himself...these people are sophonts in what they do, they are the exception and not the norm.
I think part of the reason people have so much respect for doctors or lawyers is because they know they've had a lot of schooling, and dedicated a lot of time to their profession. They can not take any shortcuts, and generally these professionals are very well spoken. We need higher barriers for entry to 121 carriers; holding an ATP, 23, and 4 year college degree in anything. These 90 day school should be banned by the FAA; all these schools are doing is barley checking the boxes, especially when the president of the school has Designated Examining Authority and just passes students to claim the high success of all their candidates. It's a huge conflict of interest.
Yes it will be harder for people to go from 250hrs-1500hrs. They will have to instruct, part 91 operations, and part 135...but this is what we need for safe pilots to be flying around 50+ people. This will all initially cause a shortage because the public is finding out, and the banks, that pilots make no money. When the airlines don't have pilots to fill the seats in 5-10-15 years, they will be forced to raise their pay and give initial bonuses, just like our nurses today are getting. As this pay goes up to what it should be, people who have their certificates are going to come out of the woodwork, and students will be back to training in high numbers. This will create a lot of flight instructing jobs, and if that still isn't enough to get pilots up to 1500 hours, the airlines will throw these new commercial students in a full motion sim for 1200 hours to get their time up and pay them if they need them.
Some people think all the flying is going to be traded down to the regionals, and we don't like that because the pay is bad, and the schedules are bad...but in the future the pay and schedules will have to change, and then nobody can complain because the regionals will be very simular to what the majors have. Well I guess we will always have something to complain about.
I think part of the reason people have so much respect for doctors or lawyers is because they know they've had a lot of schooling, and dedicated a lot of time to their profession. They can not take any shortcuts, and generally these professionals are very well spoken. We need higher barriers for entry to 121 carriers; holding an ATP, 23, and 4 year college degree in anything. These 90 day school should be banned by the FAA; all these schools are doing is barley checking the boxes, especially when the president of the school has Designated Examining Authority and just passes students to claim the high success of all their candidates. It's a huge conflict of interest.
Yes it will be harder for people to go from 250hrs-1500hrs. They will have to instruct, part 91 operations, and part 135...but this is what we need for safe pilots to be flying around 50+ people. This will all initially cause a shortage because the public is finding out, and the banks, that pilots make no money. When the airlines don't have pilots to fill the seats in 5-10-15 years, they will be forced to raise their pay and give initial bonuses, just like our nurses today are getting. As this pay goes up to what it should be, people who have their certificates are going to come out of the woodwork, and students will be back to training in high numbers. This will create a lot of flight instructing jobs, and if that still isn't enough to get pilots up to 1500 hours, the airlines will throw these new commercial students in a full motion sim for 1200 hours to get their time up and pay them if they need them.
Some people think all the flying is going to be traded down to the regionals, and we don't like that because the pay is bad, and the schedules are bad...but in the future the pay and schedules will have to change, and then nobody can complain because the regionals will be very simular to what the majors have. Well I guess we will always have something to complain about.
02-21-2010 | 11:27 PM
#82
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People don't respect or pay doctors and lawyers the way they do because they have a bachelors in whatever subject they happen to have a bachelor's in. They demand that pay and respect because after their bachelors, they attend very rigorous post-bachelor's educational programs, then continue on to rigorous post-academic certification and training. The pilot career field is similar in the respect that we require rigorous training and certification, but Joe Schmo on the street isn't going to respect a pilot any more because he has a four year degree in a random subject. There are too many Joe Schmos who already have random bachelors degrees for that to really elevate the pilot career field to a "profession".
The educational requirements for doctors and lawyers aren't there to create barriers to entry into the career field. They are there because these are knowledge based professions that require that sort of study. The simple truth is that our profession doesn't require that sort of academic training. My high school physics and math classes covered more than what I have needed as a pilot. What makes a good pilot is knowledge of the appropriate regulations (which is not academic type knowledge), and the skills and experience gained from actually flying an airplane.
Yes, making a requirement for a four year degree would raise the bar for entry, and therefore help moderate the oversupply of pilots, but there is simply no justification for making that a federal regulatory requirement. As an airline, I would prefer that my employees have a four degree because it does tend to show the things you mentioned, but as far as federal regulations, requiring a four year degree would have a negligible effect on increasing safety for the flying public. If you want more capable pilots in the cockpit, we need to increase the training and experience requirements for airline pilots, not require a degree in an unrelated field.
The educational requirements for doctors and lawyers aren't there to create barriers to entry into the career field. They are there because these are knowledge based professions that require that sort of study. The simple truth is that our profession doesn't require that sort of academic training. My high school physics and math classes covered more than what I have needed as a pilot. What makes a good pilot is knowledge of the appropriate regulations (which is not academic type knowledge), and the skills and experience gained from actually flying an airplane.
Yes, making a requirement for a four year degree would raise the bar for entry, and therefore help moderate the oversupply of pilots, but there is simply no justification for making that a federal regulatory requirement. As an airline, I would prefer that my employees have a four degree because it does tend to show the things you mentioned, but as far as federal regulations, requiring a four year degree would have a negligible effect on increasing safety for the flying public. If you want more capable pilots in the cockpit, we need to increase the training and experience requirements for airline pilots, not require a degree in an unrelated field.
02-22-2010 | 05:44 AM
#84
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Sorry chief--I'm a med school dropout (MD, OHSU, Portland, 2006, 34 MCAT), and I know for a fact there are plenty of barriers to entry that are not necessary. The application, interview, and selection process alone screens out countless fully qualified and capable individuals every year.
02-22-2010 | 06:30 AM
#85
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From: none ya...
Your lack of understanding why a college degree shows. Doctors typically get a bachelors in some type of technical degree (chemistry, biology, maybe engineering). They then compete to get into medical school where they go through highly specialized training. But they must know the basics (calculus, chemistry, biology, physics, and be well spoken (English)) in order to be a doctor.
What we are saying is that a professional pilot must also have the basics; some type of college degree that emphasizes the math, physics, English, and possibly management. Then you go on and get your training in flight school.
Keep dumbing down the profession and keep watching your pay check dwindle. The more you devalue yourself, the less you are worth.
What we are saying is that a professional pilot must also have the basics; some type of college degree that emphasizes the math, physics, English, and possibly management. Then you go on and get your training in flight school.
Keep dumbing down the profession and keep watching your pay check dwindle. The more you devalue yourself, the less you are worth.
02-22-2010 | 06:41 AM
#86
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From: Professional Monkey Trainer
[quote=nicholasblonde;767527]I think you meant "savants." I don't believe "sophonts" is a word.
Perhaps he meant "Savant" as in "Marilyn vos Savant." I remember reading about her in college.
Perhaps he meant "Savant" as in "Marilyn vos Savant." I remember reading about her in college.
02-22-2010 | 06:42 AM
#87
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From: CE-650
An intelligent being; a being with a base reasoning capacity roughly equivalent to or greater than that of a human being.
I was just saying those guys are in a league of their own, they don't have college degrees, but are way smarter than most.
Lets just say we are both right, not a word in the dictionary, but used in literature. sophont - Wiktionary
02-22-2010 | 07:55 AM
#88
Are we there yet??!!
Joined: Apr 2006
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Yes, quite a few of the regionals (commuters as they were known up until recently) had a PFT scheme back in the mid 90s. It only ran for about 3 yrs or so. I guess it stopped because they ran out of people willing to PFT. Ones that come to mind are Continental Express, Colgan, Comair, and Valujet. I know there where a few more but I don't remember the names at this time. Even with PFT the mins were still 1200TT/200multi and I would venture to guess that 80%+ had college degrees.
02-22-2010 | 08:38 AM
#89
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I am new here, and not trying to get flamed, but I don't see how having a four year degree is going to make you a better or safer pilot. I understand the thought process behind it, that it will eliminate a lot of people who should not be in an airliner to begin with. But the way I look at this, I am sure there are a lot of doctors that should never have made it to practicing medicine. However, they have a "diploma" and certificates that say they can. You should look at someone's overall "big picture" of their life. Do they have an attitude of a professional? What about their life experiences? I don't have a four year degree, but I have taken almost 3 years of classes towards my BS degree. I do plan on completing my degree when I am financially able, as I no longer go into debt for anything (look up Dave Ramsey!) I have a good work history in a highly stressful job as a 911 communicator as well as a police officer. I also worked for an American Class I railroad as a conductor. This job included being on call 7 days a week, 365 days a year (and yes we were union, but that is a totally different subject). I am not a SJS kid that had mommy and daddy pay for my flight training, in fact I am in my early 30s. In order for me to complete my flight traning required a lot of sacrifice of my wife and child as well as myself. I do have all my instructor ratings (CFI-II-MEI), but no instructing job. I haven't touched an airplane in over a year. This has not been by my choice, but taking care of my family comes first. I am a low time pilot. Do I feel I "deserve" an airline job? NO! However, I do feel an airline should be able to talk to me and let someone from their human resources and captain review board decide if I am worthy of employment, not the Federal Government. I had every intention of instructing to build hours, but that hasn't worked out for me. I am not in a position to be able to move all over the country just to take an instructing job. I have a desk job that pays the bills and supports my family. I guess my questions to you guys/gals is since I'm a low time guy (and at the present no way to improve this), without a 4 year degree, should I be classified with everyone else and never get the chance to make my living from an airline job? Does the fact that I do not have a 4 year degree and 1500 hrs make me an unsafe pilot? Does it make me unprofessional?
I think not!
I think not!
02-22-2010 | 09:53 AM
#90
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From: CE-650
College may not make you a better, safer, or more professional pilot. But it will make it harder to enter in to the industry, which will reduce the number of qualified pilots in the future, which raises pay, and that is good for all airline pilots.
Some pilots want the FAA or government to set a different minimum wage for pilots, but the FAA or the government is not going to do that. So we need to make higher barriers for entry; and the college degree, 1500 hrs, and ATP is a great way to do that. Will horrible pilots meet those requirements and get on with an airline? YES! But I think it would be less than if they had no degree, 215 hrs, multi-commercial.
Some pilots want the FAA or government to set a different minimum wage for pilots, but the FAA or the government is not going to do that. So we need to make higher barriers for entry; and the college degree, 1500 hrs, and ATP is a great way to do that. Will horrible pilots meet those requirements and get on with an airline? YES! But I think it would be less than if they had no degree, 215 hrs, multi-commercial.
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