ANPRM: New 121 Pilot Certification Rqmts.
02-18-2010, 05:47 AM
#41
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Public comments on the APPRM are beginning to get published on the government's website.
View them below by searching for "FAA-2010-0100":
Regulations.gov
View them below by searching for "FAA-2010-0100":
Regulations.gov
02-18-2010, 07:21 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by CaptFuzz
I agree that increasing 121 FO mins to an ATP could have a significant effect of moderating the oversupply of airline pilots, therefore leading to better pilot compensation from the airlines. However, I'm not sure why the FAA would require a 4 year degree to be a pilot. Unless it's a requirement for some sort of aviation degree (and I'm sure ERAU would love to see that regulation) I don't see having a federal requirement for a 4 year degree really having any correlation to someone's ability to safely pilot an airplane.
And I see no justification to giving preference to US citizens (over, say, resident aliens) unless you're going to start requiring airline pilots to have security clearances (and there's no reason to do that).
As a side, I wonder what an ATP min for 121 FOs would do to compensation for other sectors of the pilot industry (135, CFIs, ect.). I could see it creating a glut of low time pilots, leaving a larger number of CFIs to compete for potentially less students, driving down CFI pay even further.
(for reference, I have a 4 year degree, a security clearance, and am currently applying to regional airlines with less than ATP mins)
And I see no justification to giving preference to US citizens (over, say, resident aliens) unless you're going to start requiring airline pilots to have security clearances (and there's no reason to do that).
As a side, I wonder what an ATP min for 121 FOs would do to compensation for other sectors of the pilot industry (135, CFIs, ect.). I could see it creating a glut of low time pilots, leaving a larger number of CFIs to compete for potentially less students, driving down CFI pay even further.
(for reference, I have a 4 year degree, a security clearance, and am currently applying to regional airlines with less than ATP mins)
I think eventually, pilots will be required to get a security clearance if this CrewPass will become a reality at all US airports. Plus, why should we have to compete with aliens for few pilot positions there are in the US? We can't go over to France, Italy or Germany and get an airline pilot job with Air France or Lufthansa unless we get French or German citizenship so why should some European pilot come over here and take our jobs? All government jobs, law enforcement and related defense contractor jobs also require US citizenship. So it's not a new concept.
A CFI payrate is not relevant to our discussion. Why would ATP requirements lower CFI payrate? There's no correlation. At any case, CFI payrate is not likely to go down. If anything, it is projected to go up along with the cost of learning to fly just like everything else in this country.
An ATP and 1500 hours should be required at a minimum to be hired as an airline pilot and there is no shortage of pilots in the US with this qualifications.
You must be an aviation major from one of those schools like Embry Riddle or UND, or Flight Safety International. Otherwise you would not be making a comment like the one you made. I mean you write you don't see why a college degree should be required but if it is required it should be an aviation degree? So you don't think a college degree will make a better professional pilot unless it's an aviation degree? Your argument holds no logic and thankfully you are in the minority as well as not being a member of our profession. There are thousands and thousands of unemployed US pilots right now and when regional and major airlines start hiring again, there would be no shortage of ATP pilots with part 121 experience. I find it ironic that only people objecting to proposed new hiring requirements are people like you who are not even a professional pilot yet.
02-18-2010, 07:32 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by Lighteningspeed
I think eventually, pilots will be required to get a security clearance if this CrewPass will become a reality at all US airports.
Regarding the military...you have to have a degree to be an officer, and have to be an officer to be a pilot (with exception of warrant officer positions). I don't think one can really equalize the qualification standards of the military for their leadership positions with civilian flying jobs.
Major airlines only "require" a degree inasmuch as its another screening qualification for HR....there's nothing regulatory about it. Regional airlines could "require" a bachelors or higher degree today for their newhires if they wanted to...
02-18-2010, 03:04 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by BoilerUP
If that ever happens, I wonder if they'll allow SSBIs to count or if they'll require the simpler NALAC check for everybody. We are talking about government, so a Department of Redundancy Department isn't out of the question...
Regarding the military...you have to have a degree to be an officer, and have to be an officer to be a pilot (with exception of warrant officer positions). I don't think one can really equalize the qualification standards of the military for their leadership positions with civilian flying jobs.
Major airlines only "require" a degree inasmuch as its another screening qualification for HR....there's nothing regulatory about it. Regional airlines could "require" a bachelors or higher degree today for their newhires if they wanted to...
Regarding the military...you have to have a degree to be an officer, and have to be an officer to be a pilot (with exception of warrant officer positions). I don't think one can really equalize the qualification standards of the military for their leadership positions with civilian flying jobs.
Major airlines only "require" a degree inasmuch as its another screening qualification for HR....there's nothing regulatory about it. Regional airlines could "require" a bachelors or higher degree today for their newhires if they wanted to...
I suspect as far as security clearance goes, there will probably be very little changes from current background investigations requirements for CASS approval, maybe a little more in depth. Who knows what direction the govt will take.
02-18-2010, 03:50 PM
#45
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??????????????
Originally Posted by Lighteningspeed
College degree is required for all professional jobs so why shouldn't it be required for Professional airline pilot jobs? Major airlines require it and Congress wants to make the hiring requirements for regionals equal to majors. So yeah, I think college degree should be required. BTW, military requires it too, if you want to be a pilot. A college degree does not have to an aviation degree.
Originally Posted by Lighteningspeed
1. Not all majors require College degree.
2. If all Airline pilots would be require to have a College degree then all would have to be paid as professionals. (in the levels the major airlines pay). That is why Regionals do not require a college degree.
I think eventually, pilots will be required to get a security clearance if this CrewPass will become a reality at all US airports.
3. Legal Recidents working as pilot in US airlines have all security clearance and have to do it over and over again every year for recurrent training. I know. I am one of them. We are more security cleared than any US born pilot.
Plus, why should we have to compete with aliens for few pilot positions there are in the US? We can't go over to France, Italy or Germany and get an airline pilot job with Air France or Lufthansa unless we get French or German citizenship
4. Not true at all. All that is required for any US pilot to work in Europe is the same that is required for any European pilot. You have to have Certificates as any European pilot and working permit. You do not need to be for ex German citizen. I know a few American myself working for European Airlines. It may be a specific airline that has that demand but it is no law by any means.
so why should some European pilot come over here and take our jobs?
5. Because pilot jobs are global jobs and Europe, Asia, Africa and South America are full with US-born Airline pilots. If you are able to get a working permit you should be free to work in any place of the world. There are more US-born pilots working outside the US than the numbers of unemployed pilots in the US right now, much more.
All government jobs, law enforcement and related defense contractor jobs also require US citizenship. So it's not a new concept.
6. Those are not global jobs.
A CFI payrate is not relevant to our discussion. Why would ATP requirements lower CFI payrate? There's no correlation. At any case, CFI payrate is not likely to go down. If anything, it is projected to go up along with the cost of learning to fly just like everything else in this country.
An ATP and 1500 hours should be required at a minimum to be hired as an airline pilot and there is no shortage of pilots in the US with this qualifications.
7. A shortage can appear very suddenly and it will come for sure. It has been expected for the last 10 years and only the age 65 rule and the economical situation saved the companies from it. (The companies found the right excuse to cut down flying like never before) In 3 years the 65 rule saving effect will be gone and the economi will be probably at its peak at the same time and the demand for transportation will be even more than 3 years ago. It will be so dry with pilots that the US Airlines will have to recruit outside the US. Remmember that in a year with high demand and high retirement numbers 20,000 to 50,000 pilots can be hired in the US.
You must be an aviation major from one of those schools like Embry Riddle or UND, or Flight Safety International. Otherwise you would not be making a comment like the one you made. I mean you write you don't see why a college degree should be required but if it is required it should be an aviation degree?
8. Pay has to do with it. If you require a formal 4 year college degree you will have to pay that person accordingly. Show me the Regional that wants to pay a pilot what a doctor or a lawyer makes starting out.
So you don't think a college degree will make a better professional pilot unless it's an aviation degree? Your argument holds no logic and thankfully you are in the minority as well as not being a member of our profession. There are thousands and thousands of unemployed US pilots right now and when regional and major airlines start hiring again, there would be no shortage of ATP pilots with part 121 experience. I find it ironic that only people objecting to proposed new hiring requirements are people like you who are not even a professional pilot yet.
Last edited by HermannGraf; 02-18-2010 at 04:04 PM.
02-18-2010, 05:57 PM
#46
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I find these threads so funny, ironic, and sad.
There are a lot of wanna-be pilots and regional pilots who complain that a degree shouldn't be a requirement for an ATP and an ATP shouldn't be required for fly Part 121. Yet, they complain and whine about the regional companies lack of pay and aweful work rules. And they get upset when a major airline pilot gives them a good ribbing (reference the Colgan reaction to the Delta/Northwest reations of this year).
Regional flying is now the mainstay in this country. They're bigger than the majors. The jobs that the wanna-bes and regional pilots seek are in essence shrinking and losing market share to the regional companies.
There's no difference between a regional pilot and a major airline pilot. In fact, regional flying is pretty demanding due to the high ops tempo, weather/freezing altitude flying, and the low morale that comes with the crappy pay/work rules.
HOWEVER, when some of us major pilots suggest a way for the regional pilots to command more respect, more pay (for example, getting a college degree and making it a requirement for an ATP etc.etc.), they get angry with you. And they fail to see and understand that these are the things that will help them command more pay, respect, and thus stop the race to the bottom.
But no no no, someone has to point out that even a high schooler can fly an airplane and he/she's right. So can monkeys. But passengers don't want monkeys flying their airplane. So stop being a monkey!
If our passengers really knew about the flying experience and education levels of some of the pilots at regionals, I bet the demand for tickets on those flight segments operated by regionals would decline. The reality is, professional pilots don't get paid to fly airplanes, they're paid for the leadership, technical knowledge, and flying skills. It is time our country stopped dumbing down this profession and bring back the prestige it deserves.
There are a lot of wanna-be pilots and regional pilots who complain that a degree shouldn't be a requirement for an ATP and an ATP shouldn't be required for fly Part 121. Yet, they complain and whine about the regional companies lack of pay and aweful work rules. And they get upset when a major airline pilot gives them a good ribbing (reference the Colgan reaction to the Delta/Northwest reations of this year).
Regional flying is now the mainstay in this country. They're bigger than the majors. The jobs that the wanna-bes and regional pilots seek are in essence shrinking and losing market share to the regional companies.
There's no difference between a regional pilot and a major airline pilot. In fact, regional flying is pretty demanding due to the high ops tempo, weather/freezing altitude flying, and the low morale that comes with the crappy pay/work rules.
HOWEVER, when some of us major pilots suggest a way for the regional pilots to command more respect, more pay (for example, getting a college degree and making it a requirement for an ATP etc.etc.), they get angry with you. And they fail to see and understand that these are the things that will help them command more pay, respect, and thus stop the race to the bottom.
But no no no, someone has to point out that even a high schooler can fly an airplane and he/she's right. So can monkeys. But passengers don't want monkeys flying their airplane. So stop being a monkey!
If our passengers really knew about the flying experience and education levels of some of the pilots at regionals, I bet the demand for tickets on those flight segments operated by regionals would decline. The reality is, professional pilots don't get paid to fly airplanes, they're paid for the leadership, technical knowledge, and flying skills. It is time our country stopped dumbing down this profession and bring back the prestige it deserves.
02-18-2010, 07:34 PM
#47
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When I've read the works of Ernest Gann and Bob Buck I get the impression that pilots, especially Captains, were professionals who were not to be trifled with. Folks in the whole company treated them with respect.
Today, not so much. Remove and replace employee is the SOP. This is due to a whole myriad of reasons, not least of which is the sheer number of folks waiting in line like a bunch of vultures to take said job.
End rant.
Today, not so much. Remove and replace employee is the SOP. This is due to a whole myriad of reasons, not least of which is the sheer number of folks waiting in line like a bunch of vultures to take said job.
End rant.
02-19-2010, 05:24 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
I find these threads so funny, ironic, and sad.
There are a lot of wanna-be pilots and regional pilots who complain that a degree shouldn't be a requirement for an ATP and an ATP shouldn't be required for fly Part 121. Yet, they complain and whine about the regional companies lack of pay and aweful work rules. And they get upset when a major airline pilot gives them a good ribbing (reference the Colgan reaction to the Delta/Northwest reations of this year).
Regional flying is now the mainstay in this country. They're bigger than the majors. The jobs that the wanna-bes and regional pilots seek are in essence shrinking and losing market share to the regional companies.
There's no difference between a regional pilot and a major airline pilot. In fact, regional flying is pretty demanding due to the high ops tempo, weather/freezing altitude flying, and the low morale that comes with the crappy pay/work rules.
HOWEVER, when some of us major pilots suggest a way for the regional pilots to command more respect, more pay (for example, getting a college degree and making it a requirement for an ATP etc.etc.), they get angry with you. And they fail to see and understand that these are the things that will help them command more pay, respect, and thus stop the race to the bottom.
But no no no, someone has to point out that even a high schooler can fly an airplane and he/she's right. So can monkeys. But passengers don't want monkeys flying their airplane. So stop being a monkey!
If our passengers really knew about the flying experience and education levels of some of the pilots at regionals, I bet the demand for tickets on those flight segments operated by regionals would decline. The reality is, professional pilots don't get paid to fly airplanes, they're paid for the leadership, technical knowledge, and flying skills. It is time our country stopped dumbing down this profession and bring back the prestige it deserves.
There are a lot of wanna-be pilots and regional pilots who complain that a degree shouldn't be a requirement for an ATP and an ATP shouldn't be required for fly Part 121. Yet, they complain and whine about the regional companies lack of pay and aweful work rules. And they get upset when a major airline pilot gives them a good ribbing (reference the Colgan reaction to the Delta/Northwest reations of this year).
Regional flying is now the mainstay in this country. They're bigger than the majors. The jobs that the wanna-bes and regional pilots seek are in essence shrinking and losing market share to the regional companies.
There's no difference between a regional pilot and a major airline pilot. In fact, regional flying is pretty demanding due to the high ops tempo, weather/freezing altitude flying, and the low morale that comes with the crappy pay/work rules.
HOWEVER, when some of us major pilots suggest a way for the regional pilots to command more respect, more pay (for example, getting a college degree and making it a requirement for an ATP etc.etc.), they get angry with you. And they fail to see and understand that these are the things that will help them command more pay, respect, and thus stop the race to the bottom.
But no no no, someone has to point out that even a high schooler can fly an airplane and he/she's right. So can monkeys. But passengers don't want monkeys flying their airplane. So stop being a monkey!
If our passengers really knew about the flying experience and education levels of some of the pilots at regionals, I bet the demand for tickets on those flight segments operated by regionals would decline. The reality is, professional pilots don't get paid to fly airplanes, they're paid for the leadership, technical knowledge, and flying skills. It is time our country stopped dumbing down this profession and bring back the prestige it deserves.
02-19-2010, 05:28 AM
#49
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3. Legal Recidents working as pilot in US airlines have all security clearance and have to do it over and over again every year for recurrent training. I know. I am one of them. We are more security cleared than any US born pilot.
I don't need a lecture from an alien as to what is required for a security clearance. I held one one of the highest as an officer in the US military. You as a legal resident do not get the same level of clearance as a US citizen. I am not going to debate this point. It is what it is. To say you are more security cleared than a US citizen is nonsense. Try that logic at a job interview with the US government.
I don't need a lecture from an alien as to what is required for a security clearance. I held one one of the highest as an officer in the US military. You as a legal resident do not get the same level of clearance as a US citizen. I am not going to debate this point. It is what it is. To say you are more security cleared than a US citizen is nonsense. Try that logic at a job interview with the US government.
02-19-2010, 05:39 AM
#50
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9. The amount of unemployed pilots in the US today would just cover the need for one year of hiring at peak levels with top retirement numbers like in 3 years from now. The year after that the aviation colleges would only be able to supply 15 to 20% of the demand.<quote>.
Another Nonsense. Majors and regionals are shrinking. Regionals are shrinking faster than you can say nuts. I say again for those hard of hearing, There is no shortage of qualified pilots in the US. There are plenty of well qualified pilots, from furloughed and working regional pilots, corporate pilots, freight pilots, and military pilots waiting for better opportunities to show up in the next couple of years. The reason why so many regionals hired so many 350 hour wonders in 2008 time frame is because very few ATP rated pilots could afford to fly for $23/hour at a regional when you can make more doing just about anything else.
Another Nonsense. Majors and regionals are shrinking. Regionals are shrinking faster than you can say nuts. I say again for those hard of hearing, There is no shortage of qualified pilots in the US. There are plenty of well qualified pilots, from furloughed and working regional pilots, corporate pilots, freight pilots, and military pilots waiting for better opportunities to show up in the next couple of years. The reason why so many regionals hired so many 350 hour wonders in 2008 time frame is because very few ATP rated pilots could afford to fly for $23/hour at a regional when you can make more doing just about anything else.
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