Sli At Republic/frontier
05-27-2010 | 02:35 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 326
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As a curious outsider, I have a couple of questions.
1 - Where would the Frontier pilot group be if RAH had not bought them? If Southwest succeeded weren't they going to staple and furlough Frontier pilots? What if neither RAH or Southwest had stepped in - would there even be Frontier jobs?
2 - What is unfair about RAH's integration proposal? (I haven't read any details and would love facts, not speculation about regional pilot ambitions.)
3 - If the RAH pilot group is successful, wouldn't RAH become a major by default? Aren't they fighting tooth and nail now to bring pay up to major levels as well?
4 - If the Frontier pilots remain separate, does anyone truly believe the Frontier pilot group will still exist in another decade or so? If so, how exactly will they avoid the inevitable whipsaw game that management will play?
1 - Where would the Frontier pilot group be if RAH had not bought them? If Southwest succeeded weren't they going to staple and furlough Frontier pilots? What if neither RAH or Southwest had stepped in - would there even be Frontier jobs?
2 - What is unfair about RAH's integration proposal? (I haven't read any details and would love facts, not speculation about regional pilot ambitions.)
3 - If the RAH pilot group is successful, wouldn't RAH become a major by default? Aren't they fighting tooth and nail now to bring pay up to major levels as well?
4 - If the Frontier pilots remain separate, does anyone truly believe the Frontier pilot group will still exist in another decade or so? If so, how exactly will they avoid the inevitable whipsaw game that management will play?
05-27-2010 | 02:43 PM
#22
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 44
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From: 170 FO
At least RightSeatBallast sees the light here. Some people claimed all the RAH pilots were just licking their collective chops at flying the Airbus and relegating those "Frontier" pilots back to regional jets. You sir, along with Airdale and others, are truly myopic in thinking Frontier would not fight tooth and nail to keep their current positions and current pay. I expect nothing less of them. They already left "regional" careers, gave up their seniority and moved on to a better career goal in Frontier. Just because RAH bought them some people EXPECT them to go backwards in career expectations? Seriously? And one of the requirements of obtaining an ATP certificate is exercising good judgement?
I would like to make an equally preposterous suggestion. Maybe the Frontier guys will take a date of hire integration. Just give them the date of hire at the regional they left to fly at Frontier. If we are going to use regional seniority at one company, why not use it at all? Midwest pilots too for that matter. Some of those pilots at both places were hired at their previous employer 20 years ago. Let's give them 20 years seniority.
No good? Then try not to act suprised and indignant about Frontier pilots fighting for their jobs. I would have expected nothing less. If the SLI shafts the Frontier guys, some of those at RAH will be praying for a Midwest pilot for the next month's pairing. For historical reference, think the United strike and pilots who walked vs. pilots who crossed flying together in the late 80's. The FAA threatened to get involved because of the cockpit hostility shown between pilots. Cockpits are small places. Better to be friendly. Safer too.
I would like to make an equally preposterous suggestion. Maybe the Frontier guys will take a date of hire integration. Just give them the date of hire at the regional they left to fly at Frontier. If we are going to use regional seniority at one company, why not use it at all? Midwest pilots too for that matter. Some of those pilots at both places were hired at their previous employer 20 years ago. Let's give them 20 years seniority.
No good? Then try not to act suprised and indignant about Frontier pilots fighting for their jobs. I would have expected nothing less. If the SLI shafts the Frontier guys, some of those at RAH will be praying for a Midwest pilot for the next month's pairing. For historical reference, think the United strike and pilots who walked vs. pilots who crossed flying together in the late 80's. The FAA threatened to get involved because of the cockpit hostility shown between pilots. Cockpits are small places. Better to be friendly. Safer too.
Now here is my opinion friend. I don't think it's RAH pilots at all that FAPA is worried about, it's the Midwest pilots that have a better Date of Hire. For what it's worth... which isn't much.
05-27-2010 | 03:49 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,048
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From: Self employed
Labor issue arbitrations that I've been involved in were negotiated ahead of time as to how much, and who pays. Obviously, every case is unique.
05-27-2010 | 04:21 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 110
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At least RightSeatBallast sees the light here. Some people claimed all the RAH pilots were just licking their collective chops at flying the Airbus and relegating those "Frontier" pilots back to regional jets. You sir, along with Airdale and others, are truly myopic in thinking Frontier would not fight tooth and nail to keep their current positions and current pay. I expect nothing less of them. They already left "regional" careers, gave up their seniority and moved on to a better career goal in Frontier. Just because RAH bought them some people EXPECT them to go backwards in career expectations? Seriously? And one of the requirements of obtaining an ATP certificate is exercising good judgement?
I would like to make an equally preposterous suggestion. Maybe the Frontier guys will take a date of hire integration. Just give them the date of hire at the regional they left to fly at Frontier. If we are going to use regional seniority at one company, why not use it at all? Midwest pilots too for that matter. Some of those pilots at both places were hired at their previous employer 20 years ago. Let's give them 20 years seniority.
No good? Then try not to act suprised and indignant about Frontier pilots fighting for their jobs. I would have expected nothing less. If the SLI shafts the Frontier guys, some of those at RAH will be praying for a Midwest pilot for the next month's pairing. For historical reference, think the United strike and pilots who walked vs. pilots who crossed flying together in the late 80's. The FAA threatened to get involved because of the cockpit hostility shown between pilots. Cockpits are small places. Better to be friendly. Safer too.
I would like to make an equally preposterous suggestion. Maybe the Frontier guys will take a date of hire integration. Just give them the date of hire at the regional they left to fly at Frontier. If we are going to use regional seniority at one company, why not use it at all? Midwest pilots too for that matter. Some of those pilots at both places were hired at their previous employer 20 years ago. Let's give them 20 years seniority.
No good? Then try not to act suprised and indignant about Frontier pilots fighting for their jobs. I would have expected nothing less. If the SLI shafts the Frontier guys, some of those at RAH will be praying for a Midwest pilot for the next month's pairing. For historical reference, think the United strike and pilots who walked vs. pilots who crossed flying together in the late 80's. The FAA threatened to get involved because of the cockpit hostility shown between pilots. Cockpits are small places. Better to be friendly. Safer too.
If the Frontier pilots do not integrate, MARK MY WORDS, they are DOOMING THEIR CAREERS. Bedford will destroy their precious airline with cheap labor! I've said it in the past, I will say it again. Put EVERY Frontier and Midwest pilot ahead of me on the seniority list and I wouldn't complain or shed a tear. But I want them on our seniority list because it is what Bedford does NOT want.
As far as protecting their equipment, well I sure hope they aren't attached to their "equipment", because when they remain a separate seniority list, I'll be flying E190's and whatever other aircraft Republic wants in F9 colors while the F9 pilots are whipsawed into submission. And unfortunately, there won't be a damn thing I or anyone else will be able to do about it. This is the chance for F9 to prevent this. They can put 5yr+ fences on the Airbus. There are ways to integrate seniority without giving up your pay and position.
This is why I am getting out of this industry. I want no desire to be a part of a such a ridiculous industry where your co-workers are you own worst enemy. It's absurd. This industry is doomed, I just wish I realized it before dumping so much money into the training.
05-27-2010 | 04:41 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 440
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From: Lawn Chair
BB hates Bombardier products, I bet even his jet-skis are Yamaha or Polaris
05-27-2010 | 06:03 PM
#26
Che Guevara
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
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Need to investigate it a little bro.
Seriously? [edit: deleted insults] Thank you.
Did you ever think that maybe the parties involved in this SLI might actually have valid concerns and questions, and may exercise their legal right to question the witnesses presented by the other unions so as to make sure there is no misrepresentation or omission of information? Everyone is presenting the best case they can. No one pilot group is dragging their heels, and though the pace is frustrating, everyone involved should be pleased that everything is being put on the table to serve their particular interests. This is a very complex and unprecedented integration. If there was an quick and easy solution, it would have been arrived at during negotiations. That said, if this round of hearings has wrapped up and there is still more to be heard, then I am a little upset at the arbitrator for not dictating a more rigid timetable. But that is his fault, and not the fault of a single pilot in this debate.
Did you ever think that maybe the parties involved in this SLI might actually have valid concerns and questions, and may exercise their legal right to question the witnesses presented by the other unions so as to make sure there is no misrepresentation or omission of information? Everyone is presenting the best case they can. No one pilot group is dragging their heels, and though the pace is frustrating, everyone involved should be pleased that everything is being put on the table to serve their particular interests. This is a very complex and unprecedented integration. If there was an quick and easy solution, it would have been arrived at during negotiations. That said, if this round of hearings has wrapped up and there is still more to be heard, then I am a little upset at the arbitrator for not dictating a more rigid timetable. But that is his fault, and not the fault of a single pilot in this debate.
05-27-2010 | 06:11 PM
#27
Che Guevara
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Likes: 0
I think there's a lot of other questions that could use answering before you wonder why we haven't negotiated new rates on a 50 seat erj.
05-27-2010 | 06:29 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 110
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I can see it play out right now if F9 stays a separate seniority list.
WH (Wayne Heller, the bad cop) - We need concessions from your pilots
F9 (FAPA) - No way
WH - Pay concessions or we'll have to start placing 190's and Republic pilots on your routes. This will lead to furloughs
F9 - Pound sand. We won't do it
WH - The financial numbers at F9 do not support your mainline wages, I think an arbitrator would agree.
F9 - See you in arbitration
WH - Ok, in the meantime, we're going to furlough half your pilot group. We don't abide by the IBT CBA, what makes you think we'll abide by yours? Fly it and grieve...or in your case, collect unemployment and grieve it.
Mark my words dudes, it will happen. The only way to prevent this is ONE seniority list across every certificate. Not only that, but we will then have negotiating power to protect and raise pay and working conditions.
Not to mention - who's locking out the Midwest pilots now? (by delaying integration)
WH (Wayne Heller, the bad cop) - We need concessions from your pilots
F9 (FAPA) - No way
WH - Pay concessions or we'll have to start placing 190's and Republic pilots on your routes. This will lead to furloughs
F9 - Pound sand. We won't do it
WH - The financial numbers at F9 do not support your mainline wages, I think an arbitrator would agree.
F9 - See you in arbitration
WH - Ok, in the meantime, we're going to furlough half your pilot group. We don't abide by the IBT CBA, what makes you think we'll abide by yours? Fly it and grieve...or in your case, collect unemployment and grieve it.
Mark my words dudes, it will happen. The only way to prevent this is ONE seniority list across every certificate. Not only that, but we will then have negotiating power to protect and raise pay and working conditions.
Not to mention - who's locking out the Midwest pilots now? (by delaying integration)
05-27-2010 | 06:36 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 210
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05-27-2010 | 06:43 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 110
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