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Subcontract Airlines (Part 121 "Regional")

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Subcontract Airlines (Part 121 "Regional")

Old 05-30-2010, 06:59 AM
  #11  
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I would be strongly opposed to eliminating the title Regional from these forums. The forum structure is designed to be user friendly and easy to navigate (we hope), not to make a political statement.

Newcomers would be very confused.

I don't really have an issue with adding the word "Contract"..ie "Regional/Contract Airlines" but this could cause confusion too..we would get people interested in contract flying jobs for foreign airlines.

The industry term is "Regional"...how it evolved is not too important but we are not going to be able change it unilaterally. You guys think RAA is going to change their name to "CAA"?

"Fee-For-Departure" airlines might be a little clearer, but even that term is becoming less relevant as contract terms evolve into more risk-sharing.
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:16 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
I would be strongly opposed to eliminating the title Regional from these forums. The forum structure is designed to be user friendly and easy to navigate (we hope), not to make a political statement.

Newcomers would be very confused.

I don't really have an issue with adding the word "Contract"..ie "Regional/Contract Airlines" but this could cause confusion too..we would get people interested in contract flying jobs for foreign airlines.

The industry term is "Regional"...how it evolved is not too important but we are not going to be able change it unilaterally. You guys think RAA is going to change their name to "CAA"?

"Fee-For-Departure" airlines might be a little clearer, but even that term is becoming less relevant as contract terms evolve into more risk-sharing.

rickair7777,

As others have said, the term is inaccurate, misleading and has already been politicized by airline managements and industry advocacy groups. I challenge you to de-politicize this type of flying by using a more adequate term.

By calling the outsourced flying that represents more that 50% of domestic flying "regional" is a damaging misnomer. Since "Mainline" is now "feeding" the outsourced airlines, maybe a revision of terminology is in order. "Mainline" pilots and outsourced/scoped/contract pilots would primarily agree that the nomenclature needs to be revised. This "R" word needs to go away along with the other terms mentioned previously (commuter, feeder, etc). Many of these airlines have aircraft up to 86 seats and cover the Arctic to the Tropics. The term does a disservice to the industry, the public and the media. People need to know what company is operating the aircraft they are purchasing a ticket on.

I'll agree that "contract" flying may be confusing to some but not nearly as misleading and confusing as the current term. "Fee for Departure" won't work because not all of these types of companies operate on the disappearing fee-for-departure contracts.

Whenever I hear the word, I mention that it is a misnomer. If enough of us let people know the facts, we can eventually persuade others not to use it either. Let's brainstorm and come up with a term that accurately describes the type of flying that this sector represents. How about seat-scoped airlines, or outsourced airlines, etc?

Like the Government said, "Regionals are the Mainline". Since outsourced airlines are the ones being fed, just change this forum title to Domestic Mainline and the Mainline forum to Domestic Mainline Feeders .

winglet

Last edited by winglet; 05-30-2010 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:20 AM
  #13  
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I don't think it makes any difference what people call regional airlines. I think the label major airlines should be reserved for mainline airlines that sells their own tickets on their own routes. It's absurd calling CHQ or SkyWest a major airlines for neither one of them sells their own branded flying.

It doesn't matter what we pilots call regional airlines. What matters is how can we make mainline management take back all flying regardless of size, or route length and make all pilots under one company seniority list and pay same payrates and benefits.
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:30 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Lighteningspeed View Post
I don't think it makes any difference what people call regional airlines. I think the label major airlines should be reserved for mainline airlines that sells their own tickets on their own routes. It's absurd calling CHQ or SkyWest a major airlines for neither one of them sells their own branded flying...It doesn't matter what we pilots call regional airlines.
Lighteningspeed,

Don't underestimate the enormous power of words. It's not by accident that the term "regional" was suddenly applied to the outsourced airlines at the same time the scope-relaxation campaign began.

Originally Posted by Lighteningspeed View Post
What matters is how can we make mainline management take back all flying regardless of size, or route length and make all pilots under one company seniority list and pay same payrates and benefits.
I totally agree and it begins with using the correct terminology to illiminate the manufactured confusion.

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Old 05-30-2010, 09:32 AM
  #15  
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Mainline management isn't going to take back ANYTHING! It's the Airline PILOTS Who will have to REFUSE to extend further "courtesies".. THAT GENIE IS OUT OF THE BOTTLE NOW and THE only WAY IT CAN GROW BIGGER if for the next "Trick in the book"!! An Airline like a Skywest will have to Buy into a Major chunk of a United, American or a Delta for the "Right" to fly under their Colors with the Major Airline dictating the Criteria under which Pilots are Hired and deployed even down to the Uniforms and cockpit Equipment.. Once that entity is formed and ALL the scope pay is worked out with flow through proceedures in the manner that a player comes from Triple A ball to the Majors. Then all the "lesser" player Regionals might have to find a "niche" or fade away.. Or?? The "REGIONALS" might again have to return to Branded Flying in the Days of Air Wisconsin, Mississippi Valley, Golden Gate, Golden West, Ransome, Provincetown Boston, Henson, Aspen, Rocky Mountain, Boise Cascade etc. They connected With the majors but they weren't getting the fuel bill paid for them so they Had to be "complete" airlines, Not just a Limo/Taxi Service with wings. They Owned and published their routes and schedules. They managed their way to Success or Failure. And when I worked for one, (Golden Gate) their Pilots walked with pride because they weren't bound by any scope clause They were independent operators with interline agreements.
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Old 05-30-2010, 12:15 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
I would be strongly opposed to eliminating the title Regional from these forums. The forum structure is designed to be user friendly and easy to navigate (we hope), not to make a political statement.

Newcomers would be very confused.
The newcomers need to learn the reality of this profession from day one.

Just as APC tries to enlighten new pilots/pilot hopefuls on the ways of being a "real life" airline pilot, they need to know this as well. They need to know that there are few regionals left and the disticntion of regional/major/mainline is becoming more blured by the second.
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Old 05-30-2010, 01:00 PM
  #17  
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Newcomers better recognize..... We are contract carriers. Flying all across the US and canada/mexico (as many REGIONALS do), is not REGIONAL flying.
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Old 05-30-2010, 02:39 PM
  #18  
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Don't underestimate the enormous power of words. It's not by accident that the term "regional" was suddenly applied to the outsourced airlines at the same time the scope-relaxation campaign began.
The term regional started about the same time the RJ was introduced. I can remember being corrected by XJet employees (that used to be called Co Ex). It "regional" and not commuter now. I happen to be working for a commuter at the time and we sold out own tickets, had our own routes and even had a code share on two of the routes.


I totally agree and it begins with using the correct terminology to illuminate the manufactured confusion.
Lets be a little more accurate.

Its now contracted small lift providers.

Does that make you happy winglet?
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:04 PM
  #19  
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Lots of points here. Seems that term has been used as an excuse to give subpar wages and contracts for years now... the "regionals" have grown out of being regional.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:31 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by stoki View Post
Lots of points here. Seems that term has been used as an excuse to give subpar wages and contracts for years now... the "regionals" have grown out of being regional.
Sounds like regionals need to start demanding mainline wages. When regionals can no longer afford to fly for the majors and shutdown, the majors will have to do more of thier own flying. More jobs at the majors for regional pilots to move to so they can make reasonable wages flying those 70 and 90 seat jets.
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