[QUOTE=Airsupport;881523]I will answer your question and post my comments. I didn't ask any questions.

3. You are obviously a new hire if you think there is a difference in pain and suffering between working at pinnacle and working at colgan. I'm on 3rd year pay. Am I a new hire? See what I mean? What is obvious to you like DOH being fair is not necessarily the case. It is a complex issue that is not resolved with simple DOH!

I completely disagree.

With 12 years at XJ, I am 250ish on their list. I would be in the upper 80's at 9E and 17 on 9Ls list. So with a straight Date of Hire I would be about 350 on the combined list. But 250 at XJ only gets you about 20 percent on the XJ list of relative seniority, which means in a combined list I would need to be about 750. Which would mean I have to let 400 people in front of me.

Now. At 250 at XJ I can comfortably hold decent lines on the biggest aircraft. On a combined list at 750 though, I may not even be able to hold that aircraft. With 12 years of seniority?!? How is that not losing (spelled correctly) anything?

I am not saying Date of Hire is the right way, nor am I saying Relative Seniority is the way to go. In fact they are both extremes. We need to find a definition that holds us to the middle of both, to be fair. And we all need to be realistic in our expectations. No one should move up or down 400 numbers.

I disagree.

DOH is simple cut and dry. But it should have been done years ago by ALPA National (One List All ALPA Carriers). But they have refused. And so the senior pilots at every great airline that has folded or merged since the creation of ALPA, has had to pay the price. It's now our turn in the frying pan.

Relative seniority is just as flawed as DOH, in truth maybe more so. It rewards the junior (trying to avoid the words "less experienced", because it is not meant in flying terms, but seniority terms) pilots. Pilots that were in HS on 9-11, while I was flying as a CA in a Saab, will be my equals in seniority!?! Do you truely believe this is a fair integration method?

While I personally believe DOH with protections for seat position is the fairest integration method. I understand and realize that people become accustomed to and bid for QOL concerns and have "Career Expectations" that were invovled throughout in their decisions. But I had "Career Expectations" too. I planned on being here 5 years, that didn't work. I wasn't given a choice, or a vote, it just was what it was.

In the end, I expect to lose some seniority in this integration. I will pay the price again, but that's ok. I understand, and will not take it out on my fellow pilots over and over again as some do. But I would like everyone to consider (maybe my 9L friends more than anyone), that the contract improvements that 9E and 9L will get, came at a cost to senior XJ pilots. Those improvements have value, and it would serve you well to think of the QOL and Money improvements that you will be getting as an equilizer to any loss of seniority you may suffer. Just because you might be an FO longer or sit reserve longer, doesn't mean you are not going to benefit from this integration. And benefit more than the XJ guys.

with as much as the 9e guys like to complain about their union, wait till the combined list comes out and it looks like this....top 4 people....

1. Tim Martins
2. Colgan #1
3. Mesaba #1
4. PINNACLE #1

Tims Martins is on a list all by himself. Much like Chuck Norris he is senior to his own reflection.:)

I think EVERYTHING should be taken into account to be fair and equitable. Everything meaning pay raises, work rule increases, etc. not just seniority alone.

------------------
If a Colgan pilot is getting a big pay raise and a big QOL increase and the opportunity to upgrade to higher paying equipment down the road BUT loses a bunch of relative seniority...

that is fair and equitable to

a Mesaba pilot getting barely any pay raise and barely any QOL increase and gaining a bunch of relative seniority.
-------------------

Tell me how this is not fair and equitable?

One thing to be careful about when looking at pay/QOL/senority together is that pay and QOL we negotiate and, for the most part, gain for all pilots. One would hope that it would not be negotiated to take from one section of pilots in order to give to another.... and that, if that were to happen, the result would be voted down by the group.

On the other hand, any gain in seniority is directly at the expense of another pilot. You can't gain without someone else losing. The company couldn't really care less in which order the seniority of pilots is determined, it (for the most part) doesn't cost them anything. This is a benefit directly achieved by taking from other fellow pilots.



Everyone should look to negotiate a contract that betters the entire group and for a seniority list determination that does not provide any pilot or group of pilots with a windfall. At the end, you should be able to hold the same position on the same seat/base/aircraft, without much of any change other than the fact that there will now be more biddable positions should your seniority be able to hold them. Your career / seniority / expectations should go on pretty similar to how it would've had the airlines remained separate. One caveat to that though is that the argument can be made that the Q400s should've been on Pinnacle's list all along, and that should be taken into account during the combination in order to not provide the Colgan pilots an even greater windfall over the Pinnacle pilots than they have already experienced.

I'm not sure how being hired at the beginning of a hiring boom at Mesaba 3 years ago means a group of pilots should leap frog any pilot at Colgan or Pinnacle with 6 years of seniority. One example of how relative seniority is not fair. You probably have 6 months of seniority over half the list below you at Mesaba? Just because you were hired at XJ 3 months before everyone else does not mean you will necessarily luck out in this integration. DOH with a small bump up/down for relative seniority and a 1 year fence is probably the fairest method but if it comes to straight DOH, I don't see how anyone could have a gripe. If if comes to straight relative seniority I think there will be a lot of upset pilots and turmoil within the Union.

Exactly my point. I would be for DOH with some fences and seat protection. No one can gripe about using DOH. 2 years of seniority should not equate to 6. What if it comes down to furloughes again in future. Should a guy that has been with mesaba or pinnacle for 3 years be put on the street before a guy who has been at colgan for only 1? I dont think so.

[QUOTE=ChipChelios;881699]ok third year pay. that means you have been there two years. do you really believe that 2 years at colgan should equal 4 years at the new airline? Whats the deal with the something for nothing mentality thats going on here.