rickair7777

No, you're right.

Just like student pilots log PIC while soloing.

rickair7777

Technically...

An FO who is fully typed in the aircraft can log sole manipulator PIC. I also cannot find any legal reason why someone with only an SIC type could not do the same although that seems much more open to interpretation.

But in the US this time would be useless for airline hiring purposes, and if you did not make a clear distinction between your sole-man PIC and your real PIC an employer would assume that you were trying to misrepresent yourself..buh-bye!

Yes, it's legal but if you want to do it you had probably better log it in a separate column.

HercDriver130

WOW..... really guys the distinction is clear... what you can log and maybe what you should log are two different animals. Can you.. more than likely yes... should you? depends on the type of operation. Personally I have flown 91, 91k, 135, 121 and military and I have always adhered to the in command idea for PIC time... but I certainly understand that other side of the argument for logging of time. In the end, log what you want, be able to explain it and live with the chips falling where they may.

jayray2

I'm not sure what you are saying. This is totally different from the discussion at hand. I'm pretty sure no one is going to question logging PIC time as a student while soloing. It is an accepted practice and the FAA legal also backs it up.

RuttR

Reading all these different responses to whether or not a First Officer, typed rated or not, can ever log PIC time in a 121 operation begs me to wonder what everyone logbook looks like! I'm sure most of you all were flight instructors at one time and taught FAR's. The person, the non-airline pilot, who asked the original question is probably scared out of their wits reading about how there’s no clear consensus among actual airline pilot about whether or not they can log "pilot or co-pilot" time.

BlueMoon

Only after I get the epaulets off of him and change out mine.




All kidding aside, I take this all as a merely hypothetical discussion as what you could log. It is pretty clear what you should be logging in the US 121 world, if you wish to ever pass an interview with another carrier.

rickair7777

Same principle applies, if the original PIC is incapacitated the SIC by default is now PIC. The FAA-approved FOM of every 121 operator spells that out in black and white. If you ARE the PIC, then you can log PIC...

Just my opinion. I would not log sol-man PIC in 121, but if I were an FO and the CA became incapacitated I would log that PIC like someone said, with a big asterisks so I could tell the story later at an interview. Maybe they wouldn't hire me for logging bogus PIC In which case I probably didn't want to work there anyway.

Swedish Blender

So I'll toss a grenade and run away. In the 121 world, some say it is legal to log PIC if you are the PIC typed and the sole manipulator. (What FO is PIC typed at a regional anyway?)

What about the Fed ride that captains must take. Without the blessing, can you still log it in 121?

(1) A pilot in command must—

(i) Perform the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a check pilot; and

(ii) In addition, if a qualifying pilot in command is completing initial or upgrade training specified in §121.424, be observed in the performance of prescribed duties by an FAA inspector during at least one flight leg which includes a takeoff and landing. During the time that a qualifying pilot in command is acquiring the operating experience in paragraphs (c)(l) (i) and (ii) of this section, a check pilot who is also serving as the pilot in command must occupy a pilot station. However, in the case of a transitioning pilot in command the check pilot serving as pilot in command may occupy the observer's seat, if the transitioning pilot has made at least two takeoffs and landings in the type airplane used, and has satisfactorily demonstrated to the check pilot that he is qualified to perform the duties of a pilot in command of that type of airplane.

(2) A second in command pilot must perform the duties of a second in command under the supervision of an appropriately qualified check pilot.

rickair7777

Sure you can. The 121 regs you quoted spell out the requirements to be formally assigned PIC duties in 121. That has nothing to do with the part 61 sole manipulator provision for logging PIC. To log sole-man PIC you need to be rated or qualified in the airplane...SIC type ratings count, and I also suspect that 121 SIC training would count also even if no SIC type was issued...

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Airline SIC training and military training are clearly recognized as being "rated" in the airplane, even if no FAA type rating is issued.


Again this is all totally academic since it would not be a good idea to log such PIC unless you have a specific reason or know a potential employer who might allow it. Actually, insurance comes to mind...if an underwriter does not specify sole-man vs. actual signed-for-the-airplane PIC I think you could safely fall back on the FAR definitions for logging time. Might be helpful in the corporate world.

BlueMoon

Compass, well til recently when they had to change the training program. They are supposed to go back to doing it.