mccube5

Thats a pretty ignorant comment. You are missing another big problem. Even when certain groups finally say enough is enough and bring their concerns to the bargaining table what is happening? You have companies selling themselves to another company, im thinking ASA, and i think that was a mgmt. attempt to trump the negotiations. You have judges ruling that we can not stand up for ourselves and strike as a last option, im thinking MESABA. There are people out their trying to right the wrongs, but mgmt. is kicking us in the @ss time after time.

The problem is so much bigger than the 300 hour $19 RJ pilot, although that is a BIG problem too.

rickair7777

Your comments are very valid...there are reasons for all of this heartache that are beyond your control. Some things to consider:

The way it used to be:

1) Entry-level pilots always got paid sh*t, and this has always been the expectation.
2) Hoping that entry-level 20-something pilots will function as a strong labor group is silly.
3) Entry-level pilots did not used to get blamed for industry woes.
4) Within a short period of time, bills, wife, kids, etc take the alure out of a job that pays $20K.
5) About the time that happened, you could get hired by a major and make real money.


What has changed:

1) Entry level-pilots used to fly small turbo-props. Now they fly small and medium turbojets which compete directly with mainline flying on mainline routes.
2) This puts a lot of pressure on mainline compensation, so if you do manage to get a major job, it's not going to pay the bills like it used to.
3) Even worse, this phenomenon is eliminating mainline jobs...which includes the job that YOU were hoping to get some day.
4) Management has continued to sucker in kids such as yourself using the old assumptions: low pay and fast upgrade to the majors.
5) Well, the fast progression to the majors is gone, but the low pay is still there! You ARE flying that major airline job today, but in a 90-seat RJ for $19/hr. (remember $19/hr really means about $6-9/hr since you only get paid for 30-50% of your duty time)

OK, so who's to blame?
1) ALPA National, for not having the vision to see the RJ thing coming. Their job is to take the long view; they should have scoped EVERYTHING above 50 seats (maybe 40 seats).
2) Various mainline pilot groups for giving up scope during BK. If they had held onto it, and got it under one roof, they could fix the payscale later.
3) Young pilots for not being informed. It's the information age for christ sake! Do some research, find out what you're getting into.
4) Some young pilots for being absolutely clueless morons. You DO NOT have an entitlement to your "dreams". Most of my friends from a small northern town high-school are still there in that small town. They had dreams, but they work in a mill, because that pays the bills. I reached a few of my dreams by being exceptionally motivated, talented, and lucky. I would never have pursued this career in the post-9/11 environment. Us older guys had dreams that involved large amounts of money (I enjoy flying)... The worst thing about kids with dreams, is that when they tire of their dreams and realize they can't do the low pay for 35 more years they are not going to stick around to fix the problem! They will leave, making room for another kid with dreams who will further undercut the industry.

What can we do about it?
1) Entry-level pilots are kind of stuck, but they can do these hings:
-Analyze the job market
-Look into corporate flying
-Compare flight instructing to regional pay & lifestyle
- Avoid the bottom-feeder regionals like the plague (you know who they are)
2) Mainline needs to agreessively regain scope wherever possible.
3) Educate new-comers so they don't enter the profession under foolish assumptions.
4) Include $$$$ in your dreams, then make it happen!

Hopefully the next market swing will stop the race...

POPA

Riiiiiiight.

POPA

You're not making $22/hour to fly the Seminole. You're making $22/hour to TEACH somebody how to fly the Seminole. As I'm sure you know, being an instructor carries a lot more responsibility than being the pilot in the other seat.
By the way, $22/hour is higher than national average for a flight instructor and would be pretty hard to beat in the piston world. I only had one instructing job that paid more. Why is it that the teachers of the world are paid some of the lowest wages around?

stamps

Most mainline guys today never had to fly an RJ. Hell, until a few years ago, a majority of mainline guys were ex-military. They never had to deal with the industry that quite arguably, ALPA is every bit as complicit in management in creating. As for the admonition that the next generation should just grow a set & organize - the regional explosion has been around for less than a decade. Guys (like my old man) at the majors never EVER had to deal with anything like this. So we're still getting our bearings and let's be honest - National ALPA was more than willing to throw the next generation under the bus for a majority of the last 10 years.

Contrary to what lots of old hats like to say, the younger generation didn't create this problem. We inherited it.

Flying Ninja

So, how do you suppose the next generation should go about this? Go apply to the regionals and then when the interview is just about over when they ask, "Do you have any questions for us?" and say, "As a matter of fact yes, I would like for our relationship to start by you throwing out your laughable pay scale and let's negotiate a salary base with an annual performance bonus based on how much on-time flights I accomplish. And obviously, I'm looking for a nice 401(k) contribution from the company as well as a free medical plan." Somehow, I don't think that will go over very well. And obviously I'm not saying this is how you should do it, rather, asking HOW the next generation go about making this change for everyone?

At the end of the day, the next generation is just another group of pilot in La La Land all dreamy that some regional airline is actually interested in hiring them at sweat shop rates. The last thing (if it's even on the list) on their mind is how to go about toppling the existing pay scale.

So, I personally am curious as to how you go about this? Grow a set and organize? Organize with who? If I were to apply to a regional, how the hell am I supposed to know who else is applying? And to organize with my competition for the same job? Come now...

PLTwnab

I was totally with you up until you said that young people are not entitled to their dreams. This is America. If young people want to make no money, so be it. I know how lousy the pay is, but I still want to get into the market. I think that's the case with a lot of young pilots. Who doesn't know the wages of what they're getting into? Not everybody does things for the sake of money alone. You're basically telling the young people (who love what they do) to step aside so the older ones can make more money. A young person could argue that older pilots should step aside and change professions because they no longer enjoy their jobs and are simply making it more difficult for people who will love their job, to get a job. If you always include money in your dreams, those may no longer even be your dreams. I can have all the money in the world, but if I'm not doing what I love, then what the heck am I spending my money on?

rickair7777

You are certainly entitled to the PURSUIT of dreams, happiness, etc. But when you start thinking you are simply ENTITLED to anything and everything you desire...well the world doesn't really work that way.

You need to frame the pursuit of your dreams within the perspective of reality...otherwise the potential cost is too high. For example I knew many folks who went to mesa to pursue their dreams...but for those that cannot escape, their dream has turned into a living nightmare for themselves and their families. And to make it worse, they are contributing to the loss of other, better jobs in the industry.

mccube5

I have to say rickair777, to tell someone not to pursue their dreams is one of the most ignorant and asinine comments i've ever heard. Is that what you are gonna tell you're kids or are you just too selfish and self indulged to have ever had any? Welcome to America brother, where I can pursue my dreams no matter what people like you have to say! Even if i knew before I got into the industry what things were like right now I'D STILL DO IT. I will do the best I can to be proactive and make it better for the next generation, something a lot of the old time guys could give a rats @ass about. Some people make it sound like the wages of a regional pilot aren't livable, i call bluff. First year pay is bad, but if you get in early enough (before a wife, kids, house, etc.) and don't have all that overhead $25K is very livable. It gets better after that and anyone doing it knows that. Why then would guys make careers out of regionals if you have to live in poverty doing it? Get your head out of your @ss man and off your high horse.

rickair7777

I'm not going to address your inflamatory comments.

ONCE AGAIN, for the third time, I am not telling anyone they can't pursue their dreams, I am telling them to understand what they are getting into, and what affect they may have on others. I can't "tell people what to do" on the internet, I'm just trying to provide some info that is not obvious to a newbie.

Sorry if I'm upsetting you by applying a dose of harsh reality to your entitlement to your dreams.

The only thing sensible thing you have said is that you're going to be proactive about improving things, that's good.

But why don't you come back after five or six years in the regionals and tell us how your opinion has changed...