Pilot pay (supply & demand)
10-25-2006, 04:44 PM
#11
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
I am in favor of getting paid by the duty hour as well. Here is an interesting angle on this topic. Some airlines (including Alaska) do not consider you eligible for the Federal Family Leave Act because we don't work enough hours! I think you have to work 1500/year to qualify. ALPA national has decided not to fight this absurd interpretation of law. Fortunately in Washington State, we have a better State Family leave act so the point is moot in WA. Anyway, if we were paid by the duty hour we all would qualify for the FMLA.
10-25-2006, 05:12 PM
#13
Administrator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
Under 29 CFR 825.110 (a)(2), an eligible employee is one who has been employed for at least 1,250 hours of service during the 12-month period immediately preceding the commencement of the leave.
Under 29 CFR 825.110 (c), Whether an employee has worked the minimum 1,250 hours of service is determined according to the principles established under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) for determining compensable hours of work (see 29 CFR Part 785). The determining factor is the number of hours an employee has worked for the employer within the meaning of the FLSA. The determination is not limited by methods of recordkeeping, or by compensation agreements that do not accurately reflect all of the hours an employee has worked for or been in service to the employer. Any accurate accounting of actual hours worked under FLSA's principles may be used.
Under 29 CFR 825.110 (c), Whether an employee has worked the minimum 1,250 hours of service is determined according to the principles established under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) for determining compensable hours of work (see 29 CFR Part 785). The determining factor is the number of hours an employee has worked for the employer within the meaning of the FLSA. The determination is not limited by methods of recordkeeping, or by compensation agreements that do not accurately reflect all of the hours an employee has worked for or been in service to the employer. Any accurate accounting of actual hours worked under FLSA's principles may be used.
10-25-2006, 06:15 PM
#14
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by vagabond
Any accurate accounting of actual hours worked under FLSA's principles may be used.
10-25-2006, 07:00 PM
#15
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by HSLD
Would annual "Per Diem paid" be an accurate accounting method as it show hours in service of the company?
Now, like I said, we do qualify under the state Medical leave act. The FMLA, for those who don't know, is a federal law that allows employees to take time off to care for family members.
10-25-2006, 07:03 PM
#16
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Ski Patrol
In summary my point is this - perhaps less people would be willing to leave their current job to chase the dream if they saw a $12 job or $35/hour job was in store for them working the same amount of hours as their old job. Too many people I know think I work a part time job when I tell them I get paid 80 hrs a month.
When in reality I work 300!!!!
When in reality I work 300!!!!
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
This is why ALPA was formed and why RIGS (Trip, duty, Min pay) were created. They bridged the gap for all that sitting around when the engines weren't turning, because time away from home is indeed work. It really equates to how many days a month a pilot must work to make XX dollars.
RIGS were invented to pay the Pilot for in efficient scheduling, ie fly 1-2 hour leg sit around for 3 or 4 hours then fly then fly another 1 hour leg. Or for us Intl flyers.....Fly from the US to ASIA and sitting for 3 days and Flying home. People have lost sight of that fact and the importance of GOOD RIGS.
RIGS were invented to pay the Pilot for in efficient scheduling, ie fly 1-2 hour leg sit around for 3 or 4 hours then fly then fly another 1 hour leg. Or for us Intl flyers.....Fly from the US to ASIA and sitting for 3 days and Flying home. People have lost sight of that fact and the importance of GOOD RIGS.
The chart compares the pay for a typical 9-5 wage earner working a 40 hour work week with a pilot getting paid 75 hour of flight time for the month BUT in the service of the company for much much more.
This chart is dynamic so you can play around with the values by dragging the sliders. If someone wants to author an introduction and explanation for this chart and/or suggest additions or enhancements I'd be happy to make it a regular part of the site.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...061025145.html
10-25-2006, 07:37 PM
#17
Administrator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
First of all, I need to make my usual disclaimer that I am not an employment law attorney, nor do I know anything about the RLA, which always throws a wrench into any discussions regarding pilot pay. I also am not privy to any negotiations done by the unions on behalf of its members, although I can hardly believe that something so fundamental would be negotiated away or watered down as to be meaningless.
The FMLA references the FLSA in the determination of whether the 1,250 hours of service have been achieved. The FLSA defines "Hours Worked" as "covered employees must be paid for all hours worked in a workweek. In general, "hours worked" includes all time an employee must be on duty, or on the employer's premises or at any other prescribed place of work. Also included is any additional time the employee is suffered or permitted to work."
Regarding recordkeeping, The FLSA requires employers to keep records on wages, hours, and other items, as specified in Department of Labor recordkeeping regulations. Most of the information is of the kind generally maintained by employers in ordinary business practice and in compliance with other laws and regulations. The records do not have to be kept in any particular form and time clocks need not be used. With respect to an employee subject to
both minimum wage and overtime pay provisions, the following records must be kept:
(1) personal information, including employee's name, home address,
occupation, sex, and birth date (if under 19 years of age);
(2) hour and day when workweek begins;
(3) total hours worked each workday and each workweek;
(4) total daily or weekly straight-time earnings;
(5) regular hourly pay rate for any week when overtime is worked;
(6) total overtime pay for the workweek;
(7) deductions from or additions to wages;
(8) total wages paid each pay period; and
(9) date of payment and pay period covered.
Records required for exempt employees differ from those for nonexempt
workers, and special information is required for homeworkers, for
employees working under uncommon pay arrangements, for employees to whom
lodging or other facilities are furnished, or for employees receiving
remedial education.
Note that the FLSA does not address "per diem" specifically and concerns itself more with minimum pay (which might be of interest to some regional pilots if the postings on the forum are to be believed), overtime pay, record-keeping and child labor standards. There is at least one published decision wherein a government employee of the Bureau of Land Management filed a claim against his employer alleging a willful violation of parts of the FLSA. The Merit Systems Oversight Division wrote a letter to the claimant, in part, "As we explained in our acceptance letter to the claimant (dated August 21, 1998), his claim for additional Sunday pay and night differential pay, and questions about per diem pay while on travel are not covered by the FLSA and therefore are not discussed in the following decision." (italics added).
My suggestion is to speak with the legal department at ALPA for their interpretation. If I were your attorney, I would certainly make the "hours worked" and "records kept in the ordinary course of business" arguments. Again, I do not practice employment law and anything I have said here cannot be construed as legal advice.
The FMLA references the FLSA in the determination of whether the 1,250 hours of service have been achieved. The FLSA defines "Hours Worked" as "covered employees must be paid for all hours worked in a workweek. In general, "hours worked" includes all time an employee must be on duty, or on the employer's premises or at any other prescribed place of work. Also included is any additional time the employee is suffered or permitted to work."
Regarding recordkeeping, The FLSA requires employers to keep records on wages, hours, and other items, as specified in Department of Labor recordkeeping regulations. Most of the information is of the kind generally maintained by employers in ordinary business practice and in compliance with other laws and regulations. The records do not have to be kept in any particular form and time clocks need not be used. With respect to an employee subject to
both minimum wage and overtime pay provisions, the following records must be kept:
(1) personal information, including employee's name, home address,
occupation, sex, and birth date (if under 19 years of age);
(2) hour and day when workweek begins;
(3) total hours worked each workday and each workweek;
(4) total daily or weekly straight-time earnings;
(5) regular hourly pay rate for any week when overtime is worked;
(6) total overtime pay for the workweek;
(7) deductions from or additions to wages;
(8) total wages paid each pay period; and
(9) date of payment and pay period covered.
Records required for exempt employees differ from those for nonexempt
workers, and special information is required for homeworkers, for
employees working under uncommon pay arrangements, for employees to whom
lodging or other facilities are furnished, or for employees receiving
remedial education.
Note that the FLSA does not address "per diem" specifically and concerns itself more with minimum pay (which might be of interest to some regional pilots if the postings on the forum are to be believed), overtime pay, record-keeping and child labor standards. There is at least one published decision wherein a government employee of the Bureau of Land Management filed a claim against his employer alleging a willful violation of parts of the FLSA. The Merit Systems Oversight Division wrote a letter to the claimant, in part, "As we explained in our acceptance letter to the claimant (dated August 21, 1998), his claim for additional Sunday pay and night differential pay, and questions about per diem pay while on travel are not covered by the FLSA and therefore are not discussed in the following decision." (italics added).
My suggestion is to speak with the legal department at ALPA for their interpretation. If I were your attorney, I would certainly make the "hours worked" and "records kept in the ordinary course of business" arguments. Again, I do not practice employment law and anything I have said here cannot be construed as legal advice.
10-25-2006, 07:40 PM
#18
Administrator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
Oh, I see that Mike has already asked his MEC. What is the rule at Alaska, however, may not be true across the board for all other airlines. If your MEC tells you it is a dead issue, but it is important to you, I suggest you try and convince them to resurrect it.
10-25-2006, 07:51 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: NU Guy
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by schone
the main question that needs to be asked for all these 'gain respect'/'help your fellow men' threads is very simple. If you (forinstance in this case SkyPatrol) would have read this kind of a message on a pilots board, before day 1 of flight training,
would YOU have called and cancelled and give up your dream, or put it on hold because somebody else asked you to help the national effort of slowing demand and making us more valuable? I DONT THINK SO.
It's very easy for us to sit back in a jet chair, and ***** about it (even though the *****ing is rightful and correct at times) and then go preach to younger fellows what they should and shouldn't do. But the truth of the matter is that when you take somebody who's just started working on thier private in an effort to become an airline pilot, or when you take any CFI at any flight school across the nation, and tell them things like, jets, 40-90pax, 8729lbs of thrust, mach 0.78 cruise etc etc their eyes spark and shine, add to that a couple years of instructing living like a homeless with a professional job, and ofcourse they'll take the security of an airline,along with the dream come true for $19/hr.
Am I offering a better solution? no. I am marely pointing tha thold your horses with big old noble statements preached to the younger generation.
Alot of crimes in history (with no regards to aviation) were commited on the basis of the 'older' == present generation is doing it so it's okay and it'll be upto to younger generation to make it a better world.
Change starts from within. You think not taking a regional job for $19 hr because you are worth more is a good idea, go quit your job. Maybe if all of us quit at once, railway labor act will no longer be a problem for us and striking will happen automatically.
But sine none of us is going to quit our jobs anytime soon, the likelyness of things changing is none.
Don't preach. Just remember how you were when you started out.... maybe better time will come.
would YOU have called and cancelled and give up your dream, or put it on hold because somebody else asked you to help the national effort of slowing demand and making us more valuable? I DONT THINK SO.
It's very easy for us to sit back in a jet chair, and ***** about it (even though the *****ing is rightful and correct at times) and then go preach to younger fellows what they should and shouldn't do. But the truth of the matter is that when you take somebody who's just started working on thier private in an effort to become an airline pilot, or when you take any CFI at any flight school across the nation, and tell them things like, jets, 40-90pax, 8729lbs of thrust, mach 0.78 cruise etc etc their eyes spark and shine, add to that a couple years of instructing living like a homeless with a professional job, and ofcourse they'll take the security of an airline,along with the dream come true for $19/hr.
Am I offering a better solution? no. I am marely pointing tha thold your horses with big old noble statements preached to the younger generation.
Alot of crimes in history (with no regards to aviation) were commited on the basis of the 'older' == present generation is doing it so it's okay and it'll be upto to younger generation to make it a better world.
Change starts from within. You think not taking a regional job for $19 hr because you are worth more is a good idea, go quit your job. Maybe if all of us quit at once, railway labor act will no longer be a problem for us and striking will happen automatically.
But sine none of us is going to quit our jobs anytime soon, the likelyness of things changing is none.
Don't preach. Just remember how you were when you started out.... maybe better time will come.
as to my intention of this thread, so I won't bother except for this. When I started flight training sure I liked to fly. But the idea of breaking the bank someday was what greased the wheels. 90% of my students taught would say the same thing. I'm not saying don't be a pilot I'm saying lets slow the flow with a reality check for would be pilots. BTW it's ski patrol.
Redeye I'm tracking down a copy of the book. And yes NSL is a great socialistic idea, I just don't think it will ever happen. Like it was stated in another thread there are too many complications economically speaking. If it does sign me up.
Everyone else thanks for the input now I gotta go ck out HSLD's graph.
Last edited by Ski Patrol; 10-26-2006 at 04:47 AM. Reason: my bad
10-25-2006, 08:37 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: rj 700/900
Posts: 506
Originally Posted by HSLD
Good points guys, I made a quick chart/calculator to illustrate the huge negative impact that time away from base vs. pay has for an airline pilot.
The chart compares the pay for a typical 9-5 wage earner working a 40 hour work week with a pilot getting paid 75 hour of flight time for the month BUT in the service of the company for much much more.
This chart is dynamic so you can play around with the values by dragging the sliders. If someone wants to author an introduction and explanation for this chart and/or suggest additions or enhancements I'd be happy to make it a regular part of the site.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...061025145.html
The chart compares the pay for a typical 9-5 wage earner working a 40 hour work week with a pilot getting paid 75 hour of flight time for the month BUT in the service of the company for much much more.
This chart is dynamic so you can play around with the values by dragging the sliders. If someone wants to author an introduction and explanation for this chart and/or suggest additions or enhancements I'd be happy to make it a regular part of the site.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...061025145.html
Just like I figured earlyer this month, I make 16 dollars an hour. Maby, you could put overtime on with that, for the regular pay. Ex. guys working 50 hours a week at 10 dollars an hour could see how the 10 extra hours at 15$ factor in.
Nice Job!
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