Pilot pay (supply & demand)
10-25-2006, 09:18 PM
#22
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by vagabond
Oh, I see that Mike has already asked his MEC. What is the rule at Alaska, however, may not be true across the board for all other airlines. If your MEC tells you it is a dead issue, but it is important to you, I suggest you try and convince them to resurrect it.
10-26-2006, 04:37 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: NU Guy
Posts: 437
The reason I started this thread......
Get paid for duty time not flight time. If I'm at work from 7 AM until 7 PM I should be paid for it! Rigs etc could become bonuses. This would have two desirable effects.
1. Change public perception that pilots are a bunch of overpaid whiners. Compensation is generally defined as a work per hour unit. If our pay reflects a 12 hour day and not 6 this is a start. Furthermore many contracts have been gutted of rigs in recent years.
2. Would be pilots might think twice before pursuing the career. Which is desirable as there would be less of an oversupply of qualified candidates to fill a seat.
Finally aviation is cyclical as we all know. Pilots & Management have tried the same tactics throughout the years with mixed results. My point is lets take a new look at the issue of pilot pay. If someone has some other ideas lets hear e'm.
P.S. HSLD the chart is great and needs to stay
Get paid for duty time not flight time. If I'm at work from 7 AM until 7 PM I should be paid for it! Rigs etc could become bonuses. This would have two desirable effects.
1. Change public perception that pilots are a bunch of overpaid whiners. Compensation is generally defined as a work per hour unit. If our pay reflects a 12 hour day and not 6 this is a start. Furthermore many contracts have been gutted of rigs in recent years.
2. Would be pilots might think twice before pursuing the career. Which is desirable as there would be less of an oversupply of qualified candidates to fill a seat.
Finally aviation is cyclical as we all know. Pilots & Management have tried the same tactics throughout the years with mixed results. My point is lets take a new look at the issue of pilot pay. If someone has some other ideas lets hear e'm.
P.S. HSLD the chart is great and needs to stay
Last edited by Ski Patrol; 10-26-2006 at 04:38 AM. Reason: forgot something
10-26-2006, 08:42 AM
#24
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,190
Originally Posted by stamps
Good point, schone.
A $36-$40 job in the right seat might not have the shock value of a $19 job to start out with. But it's just as corrosive to the industry. I'm not throwing stones, but when someone already established regional tells you you should hold off, i'd be wondering why they haven't quit too.
A $36-$40 job in the right seat might not have the shock value of a $19 job to start out with. But it's just as corrosive to the industry. I'm not throwing stones, but when someone already established regional tells you you should hold off, i'd be wondering why they haven't quit too.
No one expects people to drop their pursuit of the profession just because someone on the internet says some stuff. But I'm hoping that some of you can learn from the info available on these forums and avoid the worst employers...both for your sake and everyone else's.
I think in this case the internet might have an impact on the regional biz....I didn't have it available and had to learn the hard way, but I would have done things a bit differently if I had read all this stuff first.
If some guy on here is venting about newbie pilots ruining the industry, OK he's just venting...but you might want to think long and hard about the circumstances that put him in that state of mind.
There are a few folks who get suckered in by "the academies" that have no business in the airline business...hopefully some of them reading this stuff will get headed off at the pass and save us all some heartache.
If you educate yourself, do some soul-searching (please think about the furure, wife, kids, mortgage), and still want to do this, great! Just come mentally prepared to not take a bunch of sh*t from your employers and to not take the lowest bottom-feeder job you can find.
10-26-2006, 08:55 AM
#25
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,190
Originally Posted by HSLD
Good points guys, I made a quick chart/calculator to illustrate the huge negative impact that time away from base vs. pay has for an airline pilot.
The chart compares the pay for a typical 9-5 wage earner working a 40 hour work week with a pilot getting paid 75 hour of flight time for the month BUT in the service of the company for much much more.
This chart is dynamic so you can play around with the values by dragging the sliders. If someone wants to author an introduction and explanation for this chart and/or suggest additions or enhancements I'd be happy to make it a regular part of the site.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...061025145.html
The chart compares the pay for a typical 9-5 wage earner working a 40 hour work week with a pilot getting paid 75 hour of flight time for the month BUT in the service of the company for much much more.
This chart is dynamic so you can play around with the values by dragging the sliders. If someone wants to author an introduction and explanation for this chart and/or suggest additions or enhancements I'd be happy to make it a regular part of the site.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resou...061025145.html
Good tool, but you ought to put a large note on there explaining that the typical pilot works something like 2+ hours for every credit hour and is away 3-4 hours per credit hour...
Otherwise a newbie might just set both sliders to the same value...
10-26-2006, 08:56 AM
#26
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,190
Originally Posted by Ski Patrol
The reason I started this thread......
Get paid for duty time not flight time. If I'm at work from 7 AM until 7 PM I should be paid for it! Rigs etc could become bonuses. This would have two desirable effects.
1. Change public perception that pilots are a bunch of overpaid whiners. Compensation is generally defined as a work per hour unit. If our pay reflects a 12 hour day and not 6 this is a start. Furthermore many contracts have been gutted of rigs in recent years.
2. Would be pilots might think twice before pursuing the career. Which is desirable as there would be less of an oversupply of qualified candidates to fill a seat.
Finally aviation is cyclical as we all know. Pilots & Management have tried the same tactics throughout the years with mixed results. My point is lets take a new look at the issue of pilot pay. If someone has some other ideas lets hear e'm.
P.S. HSLD the chart is great and needs to stay
Get paid for duty time not flight time. If I'm at work from 7 AM until 7 PM I should be paid for it! Rigs etc could become bonuses. This would have two desirable effects.
1. Change public perception that pilots are a bunch of overpaid whiners. Compensation is generally defined as a work per hour unit. If our pay reflects a 12 hour day and not 6 this is a start. Furthermore many contracts have been gutted of rigs in recent years.
2. Would be pilots might think twice before pursuing the career. Which is desirable as there would be less of an oversupply of qualified candidates to fill a seat.
Finally aviation is cyclical as we all know. Pilots & Management have tried the same tactics throughout the years with mixed results. My point is lets take a new look at the issue of pilot pay. If someone has some other ideas lets hear e'm.
P.S. HSLD the chart is great and needs to stay
10-26-2006, 09:57 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
I wrote a long thread about this a while ago but I can't seem to find it.
I agree with redeye that duty rigs are the solution. I think pilots should get per diem for all time away from base. I think pilots should be paid their hourly wages for flight hours. I think that every company should have trip rigs that encourage the company not to waste the pilots time.
But here is my solution. Pilots should be paid for time spent preflighting/checking the weather/ anything else that involves working prior or after the flight. Lets say you need 45 minutes to check the weather, preflight, etc... For each leg you fly, you should be credited this time at flight pay.
I agree with redeye that duty rigs are the solution. I think pilots should get per diem for all time away from base. I think pilots should be paid their hourly wages for flight hours. I think that every company should have trip rigs that encourage the company not to waste the pilots time.
But here is my solution. Pilots should be paid for time spent preflighting/checking the weather/ anything else that involves working prior or after the flight. Lets say you need 45 minutes to check the weather, preflight, etc... For each leg you fly, you should be credited this time at flight pay.
10-26-2006, 10:08 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Trip rigs are the solution to what you all have been whining about. The only thing I would like to see changed is to start getting paid when I show up at the gate, not when the parking brake drops. Since I HAVE to be at the gate 30 mins prior to departure, shouldn't I be getting paid for that? But the notion that I should be getting paid $30/hour while standing in line at Starbucks or Subway is a little over the top. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE it but the part of me grounded in reality understands that it is not realistic.
Here is something to think about: most tipped employees in most states get paid a minimum wage that would make a sweatshop owner blush. In Texas for example, the wage for a tipped employee is $2.13/hr. The only time that employee makes more than that is when serving a customer and recieving a tip. Now I am not saying that a server or bartender is anywhere near as skilled as an airline pilot nor do they carry the same weight of responsiblity but the idea of earning potential tied to productivity is not unique to this industry.
Here is something to think about: most tipped employees in most states get paid a minimum wage that would make a sweatshop owner blush. In Texas for example, the wage for a tipped employee is $2.13/hr. The only time that employee makes more than that is when serving a customer and recieving a tip. Now I am not saying that a server or bartender is anywhere near as skilled as an airline pilot nor do they carry the same weight of responsiblity but the idea of earning potential tied to productivity is not unique to this industry.
10-26-2006, 10:37 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: rj 700/900
Posts: 506
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
Trip rigs are the solution to what you all have been whining about. The only thing I would like to see changed is to start getting paid when I show up at the gate, not when the parking brake drops. Since I HAVE to be at the gate 30 mins prior to departure, shouldn't I be getting paid for that? But the notion that I should be getting paid $30/hour while standing in line at Starbucks or Subway is a little over the top. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE it but the part of me grounded in reality understands that it is not realistic.
Here is something to think about: most tipped employees in most states get paid a minimum wage that would make a sweatshop owner blush. In Texas for example, the wage for a tipped employee is $2.13/hr. The only time that employee makes more than that is when serving a customer and recieving a tip. Now I am not saying that a server or bartender is anywhere near as skilled as an airline pilot nor do they carry the same weight of responsiblity but the idea of earning potential tied to productivity is not unique to this industry.
Here is something to think about: most tipped employees in most states get paid a minimum wage that would make a sweatshop owner blush. In Texas for example, the wage for a tipped employee is $2.13/hr. The only time that employee makes more than that is when serving a customer and recieving a tip. Now I am not saying that a server or bartender is anywhere near as skilled as an airline pilot nor do they carry the same weight of responsiblity but the idea of earning potential tied to productivity is not unique to this industry.
10-26-2006, 08:24 PM
#30
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by Ski Patrol
This is a follow up from the thread why are old pilots so bitter to the new guys.
OK guys here it is something to think about......... When was the last time you had a job where the only time you got paid was when you actually did something? (non-aviation related) IE made that hamburger, mowed that lawn or typed on the keyboard. My point is this: somewhere in history it was decided that pilots would be paid per flight hour. We are our own worst enemy in this regard. Some of the most important things we do - pre-flight, check Wx, paperwork etc. is done before we even see a dime. (excluding per diem whoopee)
The solution ... get paid per hour out of your day. Whether at the controls or enjoying some airport appreciation.
Here's the example: instead of the $19/hr newbie pay we're accustomed to how about $12/hr duty pay with incentives rigged for more flight time.
Assumptions: On duty 160 hrs/month. Flight pay is only 85 hrs/month
Current pay scale model excluding rigs: 85hrs ($19.00)=$1,615 gross
Duty time pay scale: 160hrs ($12.00)=$1,920 gross
In summary my point is this - perhaps less people would be willing to leave their current job to chase the dream if they saw a $12 job or $35/hour job was in store for them working the same amount of hours as their old job. Too many people I know think I work a part time job when I tell them I get paid 80 hrs a month. When in reality I work 300!!!!
Slow the supply = increase our demand.
OK guys here it is something to think about......... When was the last time you had a job where the only time you got paid was when you actually did something? (non-aviation related) IE made that hamburger, mowed that lawn or typed on the keyboard. My point is this: somewhere in history it was decided that pilots would be paid per flight hour. We are our own worst enemy in this regard. Some of the most important things we do - pre-flight, check Wx, paperwork etc. is done before we even see a dime. (excluding per diem whoopee)
The solution ... get paid per hour out of your day. Whether at the controls or enjoying some airport appreciation.
Here's the example: instead of the $19/hr newbie pay we're accustomed to how about $12/hr duty pay with incentives rigged for more flight time. Assumptions: On duty 160 hrs/month. Flight pay is only 85 hrs/month
Current pay scale model excluding rigs: 85hrs ($19.00)=$1,615 gross
Duty time pay scale: 160hrs ($12.00)=$1,920 gross
In summary my point is this - perhaps less people would be willing to leave their current job to chase the dream if they saw a $12 job or $35/hour job was in store for them working the same amount of hours as their old job. Too many people I know think I work a part time job when I tell them I get paid 80 hrs a month. When in reality I work 300!!!!
Slow the supply = increase our demand.
Its all the captains that want us to grow a set that started this down spiral...if they held out and refuse to go to work than we would all now be starting at 40 an hour.....cant blame people accepting the job now.... the road has been paved.
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