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Old 10-25-2006, 08:55 AM   #1  
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Default Pilot pay (supply & demand)

[quote=rickair7777;72440
Well, the fast progression to the majors is gone, but the low pay is still there! You ARE flying that major airline job today, but in a 90-seat RJ for $19/hr. (remember $19/hr really means about $6-9/hr since you only get paid for 30-50% of your duty time) [/quote]
This is a follow up from the thread why are old pilots so bitter to the new guys.

OK guys here it is something to think about......... When was the last time you had a job where the only time you got paid was when you actually did something? (non-aviation related) IE made that hamburger, mowed that lawn or typed on the keyboard. My point is this: somewhere in history it was decided that pilots would be paid per flight hour. We are our own worst enemy in this regard. Some of the most important things we do - pre-flight, check Wx, paperwork etc. is done before we even see a dime. (excluding per diem whoopee)
The solution ... get paid per hour out of your day. Whether at the controls or enjoying some airport appreciation. Here's the example: instead of the $19/hr newbie pay we're accustomed to how about $12/hr duty pay with incentives rigged for more flight time.

Assumptions: On duty 160 hrs/month. Flight pay is only 85 hrs/month
Current pay scale model excluding rigs: 85hrs ($19.00)=$1,615 gross
Duty time pay scale: 160hrs ($12.00)=$1,920 gross

In summary my point is this - perhaps less people would be willing to leave their current job to chase the dream if they saw a $12 job or $35/hour job was in store for them working the same amount of hours as their old job. Too many people I know think I work a part time job when I tell them I get paid 80 hrs a month. When in reality I work 300!!!!

Slow the supply = increase our demand.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:05 AM   #2  
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Interesting points.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:12 AM   #3  
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I agree!
How did this happen?

But then our schedules would be efficent, and managment would have to pay overtime. Just another way to circumvent government laws.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:34 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski Patrol View Post
The solution ... get paid per hour out of your day. Whether at the controls or enjoying some airport appreciation. Here's the example: instead of the $19/hr newbie pay we're accustomed to how about $12/hr duty pay with incentives rigged for more flight time.

Assumptions: On duty 160 hrs/month. Flight pay is only 85 hrs/month
Current pay scale model excluding rigs: 85hrs ($19.00)=$1,615 gross
Duty time pay scale: 160hrs ($12.00)=$1,920 gross
Slow the supply = increase our demand.
SKI Patrol...........Have you read Flying the Line Part 1?

This is why ALPA was formed and why RIGS (Trip, duty, Min pay) were created. They bridged the gap for all that sitting around when the engines weren't turning, because time away from home is indeed work. It really equates to how many days a month a pilot must work to make XX dollars.

RIGS were invented to pay the Pilot for in efficient scheduling, ie fly 1-2 hour leg sit around for 3 or 4 hours then fly then fly another 1 hour leg. Or for us Intl flyers.....Fly from the US to ASIA and sitting for 3 days and Flying home.
People have lost sight of that fact and the importance of GOOD RIGS. Beleive it or not......sitting 3 days in OSAKA is still work to me as I am not kissing my kids and tucking them in bed at night.

The problem has become two-fold........

1.the Invention of sophisticated Scheduling software (i.e the Optimizer) The optimizer chews at RIGS and work rules. Not to mention the broad Interpretation of Bankruptcy laws recently used by USAIR, UAL, NWA and DAL just to name a few.

2. The former Commuter Airlines are now flying more Main line type routes with bigger and better equipment ( RJ's) which has the effect of OUTSOurcing the higher paying Mainline jobs we all want.
Previously the Commuters were almost entirely small turboprops
and flew the very short haul ( 1 hour hop) into the main hub.
The commuters formerly were the steeping stone to the Majors (if going the civilian route)........now they are becoming less a stepping stone and more a career to some, or a very long stepping stone.

This is one of the main reasons that why the subject of a National Seniority list keeps coming up. Imagine if all the Regional Pilots could be placed on the bottom of their Specific Legacy or Trunk carrier. Certainly easier said than done.................but it would have a postive effect for all of us. What happened at the Legacies recently and what is currently happening at Mesaba and ComAir. The Company could not pit one Pilot group against the other. One contract would be negotiated for 747 pilots down to the Sabb.
That way if MESAba are forced to strike......all of NWA and its subsideraries Pilots would stop. This would stop the in fighting and the mind set of "I hope those guys go down so we can pick up their flying"

The 1st step to a National list would require each legacy to bring (merge) their regionals onto their list. Again much easier said than done......

Food for thought.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:34 AM   #5  
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Definitely interesting points. The history of pilot hourly pay is long & complicated, but I don't think that breaking it down is going to reduce the supply of willing pilots.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:09 PM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stamps View Post
Definitely interesting points. The history of pilot hourly pay is long & complicated, but I don't think that breaking it down is going to reduce the supply of willing pilots.
Maybe, maybe not. But it certainly will provide transparency in the process.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:49 PM   #7  
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the main question that needs to be asked for all these 'gain respect'/'help your fellow men' threads is very simple. If you (forinstance in this case SkyPatrol) would have read this kind of a message on a pilots board, before day 1 of flight training,

would YOU have called and cancelled and give up your dream, or put it on hold because somebody else asked you to help the national effort of slowing demand and making us more valuable? I DONT THINK SO.

It's very easy for us to sit back in a jet chair, and ***** about it (even though the *****ing is rightful and correct at times) and then go preach to younger fellows what they should and shouldn't do. But the truth of the matter is that when you take somebody who's just started working on thier private in an effort to become an airline pilot, or when you take any CFI at any flight school across the nation, and tell them things like, jets, 40-90pax, 8729lbs of thrust, mach 0.78 cruise etc etc their eyes spark and shine, add to that a couple years of instructing living like a homeless with a professional job, and ofcourse they'll take the security of an airline,along with the dream come true for $19/hr.

Am I offering a better solution? no. I am marely pointing tha thold your horses with big old noble statements preached to the younger generation.

Alot of crimes in history (with no regards to aviation) were commited on the basis of the 'older' == present generation is doing it so it's okay and it'll be upto to younger generation to make it a better world.

Change starts from within. You think not taking a regional job for $19 hr because you are worth more is a good idea, go quit your job. Maybe if all of us quit at once, railway labor act will no longer be a problem for us and striking will happen automatically.

But sine none of us is going to quit our jobs anytime soon, the likelyness of things changing is none.

Don't preach. Just remember how you were when you started out.... maybe better time will come.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:57 PM   #8  
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Mesa has no rigs. I'm sure there are a few others...
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:28 PM   #9  
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Good point, schone.

A $36-$40 job in the right seat might not have the shock value of a $19 job to start out with. But it's just as corrosive to the industry. I'm not throwing stones, but when someone already established regional tells you you should hold off, i'd be wondering why they haven't quit too.
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Old 10-25-2006, 02:37 PM   #10  
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or you can just fix the longetivity pay scales
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