Comair to be shut down 9/29
07-27-2012, 02:36 PM
#41
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by rickair7777
This is exactly the way the regional model is supposed to work. Wholly owned simply allowed DL more flexibility in this case...no contracts to break, no early termination fees.
07-27-2012, 02:38 PM
#42
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,723
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
This isn't the time or place for this but I think it's a discussion worth having. This is such a pipe dream and fantasy. There is a niche that the majors will NEVER be able to fill profitably. And the major pilots know this. Yet, they use regional guys as pawns just as much as management. Their Contracts are improved partly on the backs of regional pilots. They don't give two $#!? about us, and they pretend they do. "someday you'll be allowed in the club boys!" just don't ask too much now."
Mother Delta has made some horrific mistakes, and this is a shame for the families at Comair. And the pilots at Delta have a right and obligation to their families to protect and grow their work. But don't, for one second, think D pilots give two cents about you.
Mother Delta has made some horrific mistakes, and this is a shame for the families at Comair. And the pilots at Delta have a right and obligation to their families to protect and grow their work. But don't, for one second, think D pilots give two cents about you.
Hold the phone...
Do you have ANY idea who was flying ALL of Com Air's (Delta's) routes, long BEFORE COM AIR even existed??
Delta was flying them, with MAINLINE DC-9's and 737-200's and 727's!
Com Air and ASA actually grew, as Delta shrank, and put more and more MAINLINE pilots on furlough, for 3 years starting in 1993 and for 5 years starting in November of 2001.
The Delta Pilots have been paying for YOUR JOBS, by losing OUR JOBS, for many years. Some of our children are flying there today. We don't want to Kill ComAir, we want OUR FLYING returned TO US! I would LOVE for all Com Air pilots (except the RJDC clowns) to be hired at Delta, making mainline wages with mainline benefits.
Do you realize many of the Delta Pilots you blame for your sitution, came from Com Air? Do you really believe we don't give 2 cents? You have to start somewhere and build the hours and gain the experience needed to get a job at a mainline carrier. Many of us Delta pilots wanted you to be added to our list years ago, but JC Lawson wanted Date of Hire on our list, and the RJDC lawsuit didn't help.
If you want to be pizzed off at someone, start with JC and the RJDC. But Delta Management decided to close down Com Air, not the Delta Pilots. We just want OUR flying back, at MAINLINE, where it always belonged, before our MANAGEMENT decided to OUSOURCE IT to the lowest bidder.
Last edited by Timbo; 07-27-2012 at 03:01 PM.
07-27-2012, 03:33 PM
#43
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Posts: 1
Long time lurker, first time poster. Left OH after 7 years in Jan with the last buyout. Sad day for all, first senority number was 1885 in early 2005. Never thought it would end up like this. For all those worried about flight benefits, try to keep in mind that everyone at the GO also is losing their jobs as well. So our flight benefits are the least of their concern. Delta will do what they will do and that is that. We might keep them in some fashion or more likely they are gone. Above all to my friends left there be safe for the next 60 days. Also kudos to the Delta guys for being classy today. As someone earlier mentioned, we all have clowns, but today is not the time to have a debate about them, but rather keep in mind the 1500 people losing their jobs soon. I am done with flying and am going to teach high school math, so I wish all the best to the folks that do choose to stay in flying. I am about to finish off a twelve pack in memory of Comair. Some good days but in the end many more tough days.
07-27-2012, 03:49 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Right Seat
Posts: 1,458
With this occurring and the possible impending doom of Pinnacle, the market will be flooded with qualified pilots. Looks like the pilot shortage will be less severe. It will be harder for a lot of us to get hired at the majors. A sad day.
I don't think comair will be the end of it. When the AMR/ US merger occurs, i think those of us at PSA, Piedmont, and Eagle will all be up poop creek as well. This is why it is very important for us to work on flowthrough agreements. Also shows that taking your chance of being a lifer at a regional doesn't pay off.
I don't think comair will be the end of it. When the AMR/ US merger occurs, i think those of us at PSA, Piedmont, and Eagle will all be up poop creek as well. This is why it is very important for us to work on flowthrough agreements. Also shows that taking your chance of being a lifer at a regional doesn't pay off.
07-27-2012, 04:29 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by Timbo
Hold the phone...
Do you have ANY idea who was flying ALL of Com Air's (Delta's) routes, long BEFORE COM AIR even existed??
Delta was flying them, with MAINLINE DC-9's and 737-200's and 727's!
Com Air and ASA actually grew, as Delta shrank, and put more and more MAINLINE pilots on furlough, for 3 years starting in 1993 and for 5 years starting in November of 2001.
The Delta Pilots have been paying for YOUR JOBS, by losing OUR JOBS, for many years. Some of our children are flying there today. We don't want to Kill ComAir, we want OUR FLYING returned TO US! I would LOVE for all Com Air pilots (except the RJDC clowns) to be hired at Delta, making mainline wages with mainline benefits.
Do you realize many of the Delta Pilots you blame for your sitution, came from Com Air? Do you really believe we don't give 2 cents? You have to start somewhere and build the hours and gain the experience needed to get a job at a mainline carrier. Many of us Delta pilots wanted you to be added to our list years ago, but JC Lawson wanted Date of Hire on our list, and the RJDC lawsuit didn't help.
If you want to be pizzed off at someone, start with JC and the RJDC. But Delta Management decided to close down Com Air, not the Delta Pilots. We just want OUR flying back, at MAINLINE, where it always belonged, before our MANAGEMENT decided to OUSOURCE IT to the lowest bidder.
Do you have ANY idea who was flying ALL of Com Air's (Delta's) routes, long BEFORE COM AIR even existed??
Delta was flying them, with MAINLINE DC-9's and 737-200's and 727's!
Com Air and ASA actually grew, as Delta shrank, and put more and more MAINLINE pilots on furlough, for 3 years starting in 1993 and for 5 years starting in November of 2001.
The Delta Pilots have been paying for YOUR JOBS, by losing OUR JOBS, for many years. Some of our children are flying there today. We don't want to Kill ComAir, we want OUR FLYING returned TO US! I would LOVE for all Com Air pilots (except the RJDC clowns) to be hired at Delta, making mainline wages with mainline benefits.
Do you realize many of the Delta Pilots you blame for your sitution, came from Com Air? Do you really believe we don't give 2 cents? You have to start somewhere and build the hours and gain the experience needed to get a job at a mainline carrier. Many of us Delta pilots wanted you to be added to our list years ago, but JC Lawson wanted Date of Hire on our list, and the RJDC lawsuit didn't help.
If you want to be pizzed off at someone, start with JC and the RJDC. But Delta Management decided to close down Com Air, not the Delta Pilots. We just want OUR flying back, at MAINLINE, where it always belonged, before our MANAGEMENT decided to OUSOURCE IT to the lowest bidder.
Regionals have a place in this industry. Newcomers need to remove their blinders and realize lot of other groups have an interest in marginalizing regionals. Management threatens outsourcing and mainline pilots want the growth of customer base RJ's provide but not the threat of outsourcing.
Delta pilots struck a deal which will f<#€ thousands of guys. OH is the latest. We all want to move on. Fine. But be intellectually honest and call it for what it is.
07-27-2012, 04:37 PM
#46
Dabbling in Pacifism
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Speed of sound tour
Posts: 115
I would like to simply say thank you, to the pilots of Comair past and present for standing up in 2001 and continuing to do so until the end. Thanks you guys are a real stand up group of pilots...
07-27-2012, 04:41 PM
#47
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Sure...I believe all Delta flying was done by Delta before comair. No surprise. But today, regionals provide a real benefit to the company. They provide cash and flexibility. Management AND mainline pilots use regional pilots as pawns. That's the point.
Regionals have a place in this industry. Newcomers need to remove their blinders and realize lot of other groups have an interest in marginalizing regionals. Management threatens outsourcing and mainline pilots want the growth of customer base RJ's provide but not the threat of outsourcing.
Delta pilots struck a deal which will f<#€ thousands of guys. OH is the latest. We all want to move on. Fine. But be intellectually honest and call it for what it is.
Regionals have a place in this industry. Newcomers need to remove their blinders and realize lot of other groups have an interest in marginalizing regionals. Management threatens outsourcing and mainline pilots want the growth of customer base RJ's provide but not the threat of outsourcing.
Delta pilots struck a deal which will f<#€ thousands of guys. OH is the latest. We all want to move on. Fine. But be intellectually honest and call it for what it is.
07-27-2012, 04:48 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
The long term benefit of the deal that DL pilots struck (if it works as the company and ALPA pinky swore) will be thousands more mainline career jobs rather than shovelling in the sewers at the regionals for far too long.
07-27-2012, 05:24 PM
#50
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,723
Originally Posted by OCCP
Timbo,
If you mainline types would stop voting away scope, Comair wouldn't be in this situation. You complain how Comair and asa stole your jobs but you guys sold out the scope.
If you mainline types would stop voting away scope, Comair wouldn't be in this situation. You complain how Comair and asa stole your jobs but you guys sold out the scope.
Just to be clear, starting with our 1996 contract, the first one we had membership ratification for, I have voted NO on every T/A that came down the pike to the DL pilot group, except this last one.
Why?
Because except for this last one, all the others allowed more outsoucing of OUR small jet flying.
This last one brings OUR flying back to Delta Mainline, in the form of 88 more jets, and THAT is YOUR ONLY HOPE of ever getting a job at mailine Delta.
The Delta Pilots are not your enemy. Pick up (and read it!) a copy of Flying the Line, vol. 2.
What is happening now, is simply history repeating itself. Most of you RJ guys weren't around when it happened the first time, in 1983-1991, but whipsawing is nothing new in this industry. Before RJ's came along, it was being done to the mainline.
Remember Frank Lorenzo??
Google the CAL strike of 1983, and the UAL strike of 1985, and the Eastern Airlines strike of 1989. Airline CEO's found a loophole in our contracts, there were no scope limits for 'regional carriers' because at that time (1980's) the regionals were flying smaller turbo-props and piston twins, ie. Piper Navajos and F27's. The Major pilot groups didn't see anything to fear there....
Then along came the Canadair Challenger, extra large. There was nothing in the scope clauses to prevent it, and management saw an opportunity to outsouce mainline flying, at 'regional pay'.
I was against it, many of us were, yet there was nothing in our contract to stop it and ALPA National allowed it, just like they allowed the B scale, an American Airlines (non-ALPA) invention, to permeate every ALPA contract. Next thing I know, I'm displaced off my Captain seat back to F/O, Delta is furlouging for the first time in the history of Delta Air Lines (1993), and Com Air is hiring and flying RJ's, bought and paid for by... DELTA AIR LINES.
Brilliant! If you were an Airline CEO.
If you were a furloughed mainline pilot, not so much.
So, now we are (Finally!) taking some (not all) of our flying back.
You got a problem with that?
Why?
Did you want to stay at Com Air making minimum wage forever?
Last edited by Timbo; 07-27-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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