Eagle TA
 

Just got it, we know the MEC will approve it. What do you think? I have only glanced at it. And in case you don't know where to find the TA, they just emailed it.

I will need to see the final contract language before I can make a decision, but based on these bullet points I am somewhat surprised. We have been told that our longevity is our biggest problem, and now they make no changes to that? Pay banding, PBS, and PTO in lieu of vacation saves them enough? Interesting.

For those of us at pinnacle going through the same thing, please post when able

Just skimmed through it..did I miss something big? Looks alright..PBS is the biggest difference..no pay or longevity cuts..also it's the first time I've seen anything that says CRJ900 and EMB175 in black and white.

- Either 6 or 8 yr contract, if we go 8 we we get increased flow thru and frulough protection
-No pay cuts
-No longevity cuts
-Instead of sick or vacation, it will all be put in one bucket at the beginning of the yr and we will use it for sick, vacation, pvds, etc. So you will get 30hrs of sick time plus 21hrs for each week of vaction you have available for that year, so if you had 2 weeks your total deposit on Jan 1st would be 72 hrs. And if you have it left at the end of the year, you can carry over the equilvant of 2 weeks or get paid for it at the end of the year.
-fly the 900 for 700 rates
-no changes to 401k
-pbs, but its controlled mostly by alpa
-NYC co domicile
-Pay banding(hate this the most)
-Call in fatigued you can get paid, but comes out of your bucket
-DH paid at 50%
-Amendment round after 4 yrs
-Plenty more just listed what I could remember off the top of my head
-Free lap dances at Spearmint Rhino in KLAS, I got dibs on pure

90 seat jets eh?

That's what I'm thinking, are we sure TONY didn't quit and someone else take over, I really thought he was going to sell us down the river.

My understanding is that you will live with this for 6-8/10 years if you vote it in. If you vote it down and go with the judge it might be worse but would only last until AMR comes out of bankruptcy. That would likely happen next year and then you can negotiate a new contract with a nonbankrupt AMR.

When you give it away it's gone forever. When they take it, it's still yours to get back.

AMR is not bankrupt this was a lobor gutting ploy and a 6-8 year deal is exactly what they want. Voting no screws up their master plane of having you as slave labor for the better part of another decade. Think you will be gone from eagle? With this contract you will have successfully encouraged the outsourcing of your future self.

...could also just look better than meets the eyes compared to the 1113...kinda like wanting to pick up the hottest girl at the bar, get turned down..have a 1 fall into your lap..then when the 5 comes around, she doesn't look so bad :D

I know yo guys are in a tight spot but RJ pilots are grossly under compensated as is. Stop the race to the bottom and giving them more incentive to outsource. The AA pilot sacked up. It's your turn. Enough is enough!

I see they are giving us a credit for expected captain attrition. Apparantly that's how the longevity "problem" gets solved. We will see how the final contract language reads.

I am a BIG NO for so many reasons. Our union is weak, I just hope our pilots have the intelligence to see thru this. There is NO fleet plan or any guarantee of any amount of flying. Sure there is enhanced "Flow", but what good is that when there is no hiring or a merger takes place an hiring gets prolonged even longer.
This proposal is a giant turd all around.
Take it to the judge!

So they offer AA crap, then threaten an even larger pile of crap while offering Eagle something "not so bad", complete with the rates for larger RJs that APA voted to avoid being outsourced. How's that for a run-on sentence? And how's all that going to workout for the relationship between AE and AA? Beware Eagle guys! I feel for you guys... Not easy times. Truly hope the best for all of you.

It mentions the CRJ 900 and E 175 to be flown with 79 seats but under the 76 seater rate, if company takes delivery of a different type then they will have to negotiate new pay. In other words they want their current 70 seater pay to include the 79 seaters.

Only for 4 years, then we negotiate the rates for larger than 76 seats.

I am in no way a cheerleader for this TA, but those of you saying "take it to the judge" need to look at how these things have gone in the past. It NEVER works out in the pilot group's favor. Yes we will be able to negotiate a new contract after we emerge from BK, you have to remember how long it takes to get a GOOD contract negotiated. It takes SEVERAL years. Can you live under the AMR term sheet for possibly 2-5 years?

Just playing devil's advocate. I think there is still work to be done, but it looks much better than it did at the beginning.

Now, instead of playing devils advocate based upon past contract negotiations... Play devils advocate for contract talks in the middle of a pilot shortage your CEO has been writing to everybody including the president about.

Grow a pair and stop lowering the bar. We took the stand, why don't you support us for a change and stand up for your profession.

I want to see some contract language before making up my mind, but that is certainly a lot better then the 1113 term sheet. I'll have to study it some more but could vote yes based on what I've seen.

[QUOTE=love2av8;1242863]I am a BIG NO for so many reasons. Our union is weak, I just hope our pilots have the intelligence to see thru this. There is NO fleet plan or any guarantee of any amount of flying. Sure there is enhanced "Flow", but what good is that when there is no hiring or a merger takes place an hiring gets prolonged even longer.
This proposal is a giant turd all around.
Take it to the judge![/

Eagle flyinging is going to be given away. The union gave away the only thing keeping your jobs secure..... The planes. There is a reason a certain regional is having over water traing and planning to do red white and blue flying out of miami. Father Bedford is in Dallas working on taking eagle flying....he happens to be BFF's with your CEO. Sadly the pilot group is not smart enough to vote no on this.

Best post I've seen all day!

How would voting no stop the transfer of flying?

Term sheet is only during bankruptcy. One year of that or 6-10 under a **** contract you voted in for yourself. Not to mention what you would be doing for the profession as a whole.

Managment has always said they want to diversify the feed. They want to keep eagle off their backs for 8 years + with this TA. While being free to give away the flying. The judge might gut the contact in the short term if you vote no... But you can negotiate a new contract (including feed) when AA exits bankruptcy. Plus AA wants to show the judge that they are pilot friendly by having this TA pass.... Since mainline is not playing ball.

don't ask intelligent questions, this is the internet!

Excuse me? "what [we're] doing for the profession as a whole" ?!?!?! I believe you're insinuating that we should somehow refuse to fly larger airplanes? Do you think that after this refusal took place, AMR would simply award that flying to mainline? We all know that RAH, SKW, etc etc would be on the ramp the next day to move those airplanes, and I can't blame them.

MAINLINE contracts govern scope (and now, the BK Judge). Get back to me when you've convinced every RJ driver nationwide to boycott our flying when the bid for it goes out, and then I'll be sure to stick it to 'em with a no vote.

And just to cover your whole argument-in a perfect world, we could reject, work under the term sheet for 6 months, exit BK and begin "intense" negotiations towards a new contract. Except any AA pilot will tell you "intense" negotiations with AMR could be a while. What motivation does mgmt have to agree at that point? They're making $$ hand over fist while you're working for peanuts under the term sheet. And if Gov. Romney gets elected, do you think we'll be released to strike? I'm just curious if you could tell me how many strikes were allowed under President Bush in his tenure during the previous Ch. 11 BKs at UAL, DL, NWA....?

VOTE NO
For those that are salivating at CRJ900 and EMB175 because it was mentioned, guess what, the AE contract has had SAAB 2000 mentioned for 16 years, I have never seen a SAAB 2000 in AE colors, has anyone else? Get my point. If it is not on the property, then you dont have it, even then it is not for sure.

What you have are a lot of QOL items being taken away, such as drop trip sequence and vacation slide to maximize vacation, DH pay reduced to 50%, Transition conflicts guarantee pay and training conflict pay is all gone with PBS. Your Pay Increase indexing can now go negative to where you will be taking pay cuts every year due to the indexing.

You actually are getting maybes from the company while you are giving up tangible items of great value. The bullet points are enough to know whether you are a yes or NO vote. The contract language will be written by AMR and the MEC will agree to it, dont need to read the language. The bullet points are enough to show what a turd this is.

You have gained nothing and the company gets 45 million a year in savings, how did you benefit. MGT gets an 8 year concessionary contract with the pilots, you get an 8 year concessionary contract with 45 million dollars in give backs, who makes out on the deal.

Grow some apples, VOTE NO

You said it all in the first line of your reply. They do want to diversify, so what's to keep us from voting no, instantly getting Comair'd when BK is over, and the new shiny 175's go to ABC and XYZ airlines?

If you're AA, is that what you did back in your concession when the BK gun wasn't even at your head?

Just asking since you're being all preachy and stuff :rolleyes:

Does AA or Eagle have the capital to purchase a bunch of large RJ's?? Doubt it. There tied up with 737/A319 orders...

I understand mainline governs scope. That's not what I was talking about.

What I meant by hurting the profession was AGREEING to an EIGHT YEAR concessionary contract when some of us are trying to negotiate huge raises and get some Qol increases. If you don't think no pay changes and PBS is not concessionary then you are crazy. Watch your w2 plummet next year eventhough your pay rate won't change. When the furloughs come they will be deeper under PBS because it is a staffing tool at its core and if your not on the end of a furlough letter it will affect your relative seniority due to the lower pilot count.

Eagle and Xjt are the only two regionals with some bit of Qol in their contracts and you are about to give yours away for the next EIGHT YEARS. Not saying the next year or two won't be hard but it sure ain't EIGHT YEARS

The next question should be: Do you think even 1% AA pilots would vote yes to your current TA if that is what was offered to them? I'm guessing the answer is a big hell no. So why are any eagle pilots even considering it? Are you not airline pilots flying the same customers in the same weather at the same airports as the AA pilots. Why would this trash be ok for you but not them. Time to adjust your expectations for this profession. Up is the only way you should be willing to go.

They lease almost all the airplanes anyway. Like the entire EMJ fleet we have now to my knowledge are all on long term leases, thats at least what the union claimed as fact.

When do you guys have to vote ? Date ?

They are developing contract language now and that will take a couple weeks. Then if the MEC likes it & agrees to go forward, they will do roadshows for a few weeks then voting would open.

But come on, there is no fleet plan or any guarantee to the amount of flying we would have but we'd have furlough protection. That alone shod set off the warning sirens. Why are there Saab rates & CRJ rates? Because they want to sell us to the highest bidder. Horton has already announced this as his intention for us. We are coming into an unprecedented regional pilot shortage & trust me they are concerned about it.

Now I'm not hard core blinders on, but why on earth are we accepting the first crappy offer they push thru? Send a message to them and the company that it's not good enough. Don't jump at the fear grenade they throw out, for once WE the pilot group hold Thr upper hand. Now is not the time to fold, now is the time to call the bluff.

Stand together, show done backbone and let's put a stop to the race to the bottom. We owe to this profession!i

Nope...read the last annual report to shareholders

Does voting yes guarantee it won't be transfered?

I need to see the language
 

I'm not sure how I'm going to vote until I see the details but here are a couple of my thoughts.

PBS: might work out in some ways. Being relatively junior in my base I would love to be able to bid days off and have a schedule built around that. Instead I have to try to bid a crappy line ( reserve or hard line ) try to trip trade and see "denied due to staffing".

Sick & Vacation in one bucket: We're giving up a week of vacation but we can now use the sick time we accrue. Seems like a wash as the company will smack your balls if you try using all your sick time anyways.

Home Reserve: with a positive spaced ticket this could really work out for us commuters. It would be nice to give up the crash pad. Again I need to see the language.

Captains are taking 2.5% pay cut. Well I'm in the what about me generation and I doubt I'll ever be a captain at AE.

Saabs, CRJ's and E175's oh my....could care less. We had E175 pay rates at Comair and the airplane was never flown by a Comair pilot. There is no doubt that Skywest and Republic are going to be given planes and routes. This particular item is in the hands of mainline.

Flow and Furlough....Pffft. You can put that next to the Charmin. Furlough protection has never worked and AA still hasn't had a use for the 200+ guys now at Eagle.

So for me it all comes down to the language.

Tell me where I'm wrong.

TC

How many releases to self-help were requested under W? I remember the NW mechanics strike was allowed. And I believe the administration stated that it would convene a PEB after the cooling off period expired for AA FAs back in 2001.

In recent memory I recall Clinton ordered AA pilots back to work in 1997.

I wouldn't count on help in Washington for anything. Regardless of who is in office.

Nope. No fleet plan or minimum block hours. I'm sure Transtate Holdings is chomping at the bit as well.

How's Compass treating you Mr. Moon?

If only the SEIU were our union. Then this would get solved quick. ;)

You're wrong. Captains aren't getting a pay cut. You reading the same term sheet? Also, we dont have CRJ900/E175 pay rates. We have CRJ700 pay rates that will be used for the 900/175, for 4 years. And pay banding, meaning there will most likely be a few captains on the 700/900/175 flying at E145 rates.