Pinnacle First Officer ATP Checkride Failures
01-05-2013 | 10:05 AM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 174
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at least get the facts right....the PC takes 2 hours, leaving 3 hours for practice sim time for the ATP. You should be able to polish up you V1 cuts and missed approaches in an hour, the rest of the ride is normal procedures you should already know because you should be using them daily. And if they aren't ready, they don't get signed off. very few bust the ride part, the majority is on the oral.
01-05-2013 | 01:44 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 337
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From: Toilet warmer.
I recently completed my ATP exam with Pinnacle. I must say, there is not much guidence or preperation offered to FOs before they come down for it, basically its a short memo on what to expect (systems, limitations, walk around slide). I studied 1-2 hrs a day for about 2 weeks prior so I felt fairly preparded. I also made sure my logbooks were totalled correctly and everything was well presented like going into an interview. The examiner saw this and later told me he knew I would pass right away based on my level of preperation.
I don't believe they are out to fail anyone at all. If you show up prepared, you will pass. Know the limiations, walk around slide, and overhead panel solid and you will pass the oral just fine. Also know alt weather mins, basic FARs, and know where to find information in the FOM.
My only gripe with the whole experience is the scheduling aspect of it. On day one, show up to Flight Safety at 9am with a 2 hour pre-prep oral (while Captain does his PC oral). One hour break, one hour pre brief then 5 hours in the box. It was a very long day. Then I came back at 6am the next morning to do my ATP checkride. They should be having the oral scheduled on a diffrent day than the sim.
I have heard a few horror stories and had no idea FOs were being termanted and failing at high rates. Based on what I experienced there is no reason you should fail if you prepare moderatly. I don't believe any of the instructors are out there to fail you, there are just a bunch of incompetent FOs that are not doing crap to prepare themselves, coming down to MEM thinking its just another PC
I don't believe they are out to fail anyone at all. If you show up prepared, you will pass. Know the limiations, walk around slide, and overhead panel solid and you will pass the oral just fine. Also know alt weather mins, basic FARs, and know where to find information in the FOM.
My only gripe with the whole experience is the scheduling aspect of it. On day one, show up to Flight Safety at 9am with a 2 hour pre-prep oral (while Captain does his PC oral). One hour break, one hour pre brief then 5 hours in the box. It was a very long day. Then I came back at 6am the next morning to do my ATP checkride. They should be having the oral scheduled on a diffrent day than the sim.
I have heard a few horror stories and had no idea FOs were being termanted and failing at high rates. Based on what I experienced there is no reason you should fail if you prepare moderatly. I don't believe any of the instructors are out there to fail you, there are just a bunch of incompetent FOs that are not doing crap to prepare themselves, coming down to MEM thinking its just another PC
01-05-2013 | 03:50 PM
#134
Day puke
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,865
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From: Out.
The candidates in question are not going to be Airline Captains however. Without a full upgrade training class none of the pilots will ever be airline captains. If you want to fluster potential ATP candidates then put them through the whole upgrade training stamp and fluster to your heart's content. That is the whole point of this thread, the pilots are getting left over sim scraps (less than an hour) for training, for the highest rating a pilot can earn. How can you hold these pilots to the same standards as pilots who have trained full time for 2 full months?
Also, remember the ATP, unlike the Private or Commercial, has NO flight training requirement and no instructor endorsements are required. All one must do is fill out an 8710. Prior to my ATP checkride, I hadn't received AMEL dual instruction or other training in two or three years.
01-05-2013 | 06:16 PM
#135
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Joined: Aug 2012
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Unless I am misinterpreting Part 121 regs, not a single one of these pilots will be an airline captain without undergoing either the full initial training of another airline or the upgrade training at their current airline.
01-05-2013 | 06:26 PM
#137
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,244
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From: CL-65 captain
correct.....but if they win Powerball they could buy a CL-65 and legally just jump in the left seat with a fresh AMEL ticketed buddy in the right seat and just blast off......or convince a naive corporate dept that they were in fact PIC. Back in '05 or so the MEM FSDO started yanking the CL-65 type ratings of some pinnacle captains that couldn't pass IOE for this very reason.
01-05-2013 | 07:10 PM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 425
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From: B737 F/O
I'd venture that all are doing this training event in a type that they're currently flying. Your actual flying is being evaluated to the same standards as before...you just may be sitting a few feet further left. So get in there, think ahead of the airplane, and make some command decisions when you need to!
Treat your thought process going in like you're going to be upgrading, even if you're not going to be sitting in the classroom for a few weeks of groundschool beforehand. If you're a current F/O......this should be no big deal. After all, you're thinking, "What would I do in this situation if I were the CA?" while out on the line, right? Here's your chance. Take this as an opportunity to learn something, not just check a box on an 8710.
01-05-2013 | 08:20 PM
#139
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,775
Likes: 18
Maybe if the FO training was better. For the last 5 years we have been taught to call a failure out and "look left" and wait for the CA to make a decision. Read: FO not allowed to make a decision. The flows indicate I call tower during an abort.
So, in two days, the pinnacle trained mindset has to be reset. I've read the QRH a bunch on my own time, but I have only run the rejected TO QRH twice. Once on training day and once on checkride day. All from the right seat. (Biggest challenge is setting the brake from my 5+ year seat position).
I personally thought the ride and the examiner and my "instructor" were top notch and very fair. No gotchas. Self study can be a pain but it works.
Don't forget though, anyone about to go through this: EVERYTHING in Ch 3 regardless of double box is fair game. Heck, I was asked what the max depths of contaminants were. Everything else seemed to be up to the guy or gal depending on the knowledge demonstrated to that point.
Over study. Then study more. Study so much you think you can't remember it all. You won't. But when you kick one system's butt, you will have earned some points for when you stumble.
So, in two days, the pinnacle trained mindset has to be reset. I've read the QRH a bunch on my own time, but I have only run the rejected TO QRH twice. Once on training day and once on checkride day. All from the right seat. (Biggest challenge is setting the brake from my 5+ year seat position).
I personally thought the ride and the examiner and my "instructor" were top notch and very fair. No gotchas. Self study can be a pain but it works.
Don't forget though, anyone about to go through this: EVERYTHING in Ch 3 regardless of double box is fair game. Heck, I was asked what the max depths of contaminants were. Everything else seemed to be up to the guy or gal depending on the knowledge demonstrated to that point.
Over study. Then study more. Study so much you think you can't remember it all. You won't. But when you kick one system's butt, you will have earned some points for when you stumble.
01-05-2013 | 08:57 PM
#140
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,164
Likes: 803
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Wait a minute here. These candidates are getting an ATP. An ATP means they are qualified to be pilot in command. So if one of these guys gets hired as a CRJ 200 captain at Fast Freddy's Flying Service, Fast Freddy is expecting an ATP, not a SIC ATP.
Also, remember the ATP, unlike the Private or Commercial, has NO flight training requirement and no instructor endorsements are required. All one must do is fill out an 8710. Prior to my ATP checkride, I hadn't received AMEL dual instruction or other training in two or three years.
Also, remember the ATP, unlike the Private or Commercial, has NO flight training requirement and no instructor endorsements are required. All one must do is fill out an 8710. Prior to my ATP checkride, I hadn't received AMEL dual instruction or other training in two or three years.
Company-specific flows and FOM knowledge is not in the PTS.
The ATP doesn't give you anything more than an SIC-type, which should be to ATP flying standards anyway. You can't be a 121 CA without completing company PIC training.
You can't even impress women with an ATP...nobody's ever heard of it, the public thinks a "Commercial Pilot" means airline pilot.
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