But chest thumping does :)

Epic response! I too am curious if he really shorted the stock.

Another vague ASA connection email sent out today that sort of came across to me as backpedaling off the militant stance on Flightline and now talks of working together. To answer your question, there is no such thing as "working together" when one side show ZERO compromise when it comes to Flightline PBS. After all, our MEC told ALPA national they are willing to lose aircraft and RFPs to keep Flightline....

As an XJT pilot. I think we all should vote to run this company into bankruptcy with a kickass contract for 3 years then go to mainline ;) together run this b.i.ch into the ground like all regionals should do..,

Wish I had the time to discuss this with you on the phone, but that last sentence is false.

I highly recommend you read the transition and process agreement and read what it has to say about the Company entering into seperate negotiations with either pilot group individually. Once you see that the TPA secures the right for the pilot group being left out to be present during those types of negotiations, you'll realize that the ASA MEC is actually taking a respectable position of fighting for what is right for OUR pilots.

If the TPA allows our negotiators to be present while the company negotiates with XJT over large two-class aircraft (which it does), then I sure as hell want them there to make sure they can see first hand how low some parties are willing to go on said pay rates. Or, perhaps, how high - and to then secure THOSE rates also for our pilots.

Unless, of course, you would like our brothers over there to undercut us on the rates we currently have - thus reducing our ability to increase, much less protect, our large dual class rates.

That "vague" letter today, albeit maybe not as strong as I had hoped (trust me...I voiced my concerns about the lack of additional context), is full of enough details for anyone who has been following current events going back to the first XJT JetLink Comm stating that the Company is interested in establishing dual class payrates.

I'll be happy to talk about this tomorrow if you'd like. Wife would kill me if she knew I was handling this ridiculous stuff at 9:15, lol.

I'll give a rare compliment to the ASA MEC on this one. I have no question in my mind (from their gloating on the internet particularly), that the XJT MEC is in cahoots with management to lob us a hand grenade on this one. This entire merger, they have been the bad kids, and now all of a sudden, we stood our ground on one very important issue, and we're the bad kids. So of course, they love this and are using it to their advantage.

They will "negotiate" as long as they are required to under 26, then they will "let" the arbitrator impose an "industry standard" 900 rate well below ours. Then they will laugh at us as our airplanes are transferred and lecture us about being competitive (a change from their lectures to be tough previously). One thing I learned on The Pipe is that the XJT group has no class, and no unity, it is all about them. so I applaud my MEC. Shut it down for all I care. If we never get another plane, I'm fine with it. I will not do this job for one penny less nor one hair worse QOL. McPickle's gloabalized bidding system is not acceptable. I say keep it separate, and we'll all take our chances.

But I think we all know what ALPO's response will be to our protest on the TPA. Here's the sand. Go pound.

As a member of the XJT MEC, I can assure you we have Unity, and class.

I wasn't specifically referring to you, Joe.

Tony, I can assure there is no way we would ever take rates less than your rates as they arent too far behind our 50 seat rates. As for the rest, I really wonder if you are aware of what has been going on in negotiations. Our group is certainly not perfect, but we have put a lot of time and energy into coming up with a maltitude of solutions that you guys would find acceptable. You have turned down every one and refuse to offer any solutions other than everyone going to flightline. As for the pipe, it represents a small percentage of our pilots who get on there and like to btich. Our group is reasonable and wants to work together, and thats why we're still negotiating with management and youre not. Guys in management might not be saints, but they are smart enough to know when a group wants to work together and when a group is being childish.

I'm not willing to take that chance. I like Flightline, but all indications show it is no longer acceptable to the company, and never was acceptable to XJT. If Smartpref is the way to a JCBA and SLI, I'm willing to compromise. Flightline is great, but it does have flaws and is not worth falling on our swords for.

McPickle has a very detailed explanation about Globalization and Smartpref on FI. I'm convinced that it can be as excellent a PBS system as Flightline.

From a regular line L-ASA guy who likes Flightline...

Let's just get this over with and ride with prefbid. The longer we draw this out...the worse it will be for EVERBODY.

I can't believe I'm even reading this. For two years, you guys have thumbed your noses at every single proposal management or L-ASA made. You have bragged how you will shut it down. You bragged the ASA MEC needs to stand aside and [quote] "Let the big boys handle this". You have called the ASA side every aphorism in the book for weak and spineless. Now, suddenly, we stand our ground on the most important issue to us. The one issue our pilots support by an 80+% margin, and you guys label us as the militant miscreants who are holding up the merger, and we get what we deserve. Un freaking believable!

This 900 negotiation your MEC has entered into WILL result in a concessionary rate. it is REQUIRED to go to arbitration is you don't come to an agreement, and management will not agree to anything more than PCL+5%. The arbitrator is required to look at the industry standard, and that standard (Mesa, GoJetss, PSA, PCL) is way below ours. You WILL be forced to fly these planes for cheaper than us, and will then be whipsawed against us. and I suspect you all will be fine with that, since you've convinced yourselves we deserve it for refusing to follow Steve off the cliff.

We are in this predicament because your MEC has held up the show for the last two years. If we'd already agreed to a JCBA, your section 26 would be gone, and management would be negotiating in good faith. Furthermore, your MEC could have pointed to the TPA and told management to shove it. But that hasn't happened. In fact, your MEC has not even allowed the ASA MEC to "observe" these negotiations. So spare my your sanctimonious s#$%.

Gotcha Looking forward to talking to you. XJT's 50 seat rates aren't too far behind our 70 seat rates, so I doubt they'll be undercutting us. I believe they'll get rates done pretty quickly as its my belief the company wants a rate established so they can start placing aircraft over there, likely Eagle and UAX CR7/9 flying

Ding ding ding.....but we'll just let Tony keep running his mouth :rolleyes:

Your understanding it 100% wrong. Management has held the position that they didn't care which PBS vendor we used as long as we all agreed on PBS up until about two months ago. The only part they didn't like was vacation low, which we have already agreed to modify.

hi pot, meet the kettle. :rolleyes:

If it went to arbitration, the 76-seat rate would have to be higher than the current 50-seat rate right?

I forgot how much money they're making on YOUR BACKS!!!

Listen Tony, im not on here playing games, trying to "get a rise out of people" as you put it, im just telling you what happened. The cliff notes are very simple: we said we'd prefer to keep line bidding, you said you prefer flightline. We said ok, we'll do some research and get back to you with a compromise. We spend hundreds of hours researching different bidding systems and concluded that flightline is not acceptable for our pilots. We offered Smartpref as a compromise. You concluded (based on very little research using no work rules) that Smartpref was also unacceptable for your group in addition to our line bidding (which you also did zero research on...in fact, you never even looked at it). We said ok, please provide us with another alternative. We gave you one when you said no to line bidding so please give us one since we are saying no to flightline. You said you will not accept any other system. Then the company comes out and says flightline has actually increased costs from line bidding and they are also interested in an alternative. They begin working with us to negotiate 70+ seat rates. Are we married to Smartpref? NO. Are we married to line bidding? No but we do like it. All we ask is for you the present one system that is acceptable to your pilot group other than flightline. The position of the 5% of our pilots who post on the crackpipe has NEVER been the position of the MEC. So please stop referring to such posts as our past position. There, did I miss anything? Flame on man, flame on.

In one of the many Pinnacle TA threads, I saw a quick comparison of their new rates with our current CRJ and ERJ rates. I can't find it now -- does anyone know how 9E's new 900 rate compares to the current ERJ rate?

Its quite a bit less. XJT is currently on 50 seat concessionary rates that still blow 9Es 900 rates out of the water. FO top out is $44, CA tops at $97.

Pinnacle 60-76 seat Jet Rates @ Date of Signing

12 yr CA $87.31
3-4 yr FO $38.58

If anyone thinks we are going to fly larger aircraft for less than our 50 seat rates then they have another thing coming. They can have the airplanes, we're done giving. We would have to fly them at less than our current 50 seat rates in order to undercut the ASA side, which is exactly what they are accussing us of wanting to do. No thanks.

The ASA MEC did indeed research Smartpref. From what I know about the two systems I do not understand how anybody would think Smartpref is better than Flightline. Can you please tell me how Globalization is better than Non-Globalization? Also, Why is Smartpref good for your pilots but Flight line is not?

Thanks

The ASA MEC ran smartpref with ZERO WORKRULES! I have explained the pros and cons in countless other threads, I encourage you to read them. Here is the one major reason flightline is sub par in our opinion: the company can go in and run hundreds of solutions until they find the one thats best for them, not to mention you have to fill out countless bid sheets with all your preferences. With smartpref, you bid live, one time, and thats the final solution. No manipulation, just what you can hold. There are many other advantages our work rules bring to the table and I have explained these in detail in multiple threads.

Your assumption is that nothing else was considered. The XJT MEC have given multiple proposals to move forward and the ASA MEC has turned every one of them down because it didn't include flight line as the final outcome for everybody. And the fact that you have already been through choosing your pbs is irrelevant now. That is why its called joint negotiations, its not just what you want anymore.

Your assumptions are incorrect. Only the bottom restricted group are constrained. It doesn't change everyone's bid AFTER closing like prefbid does. And it globalizes by choosing neutral trips anyway. With smartpref, you can choose your credit between 75-98. Of course if the top half of the pilots bid for 98 hours, the bottom will be at 75. Vacation has been shown to be equal to our current line bidding. I do agree that any pbs in general is a concession for multiple reasons, not just monetarily. Which is why I would want something in return for it. But with the right amount of credit time for training and vacation, it will maintain our current QOL.

Yes, I'm sure management doesn't mind this whipsaw. Its too bad that one party had to give ultimatums. As for 50 seat rates and the comparison to future 70 seat rates, our 50 seat compensation is within a percentage or two from ASA's crj900 seat compensation. So what should we expect for our rates? Only an arbitrator will figure that out. But this is not us putting the screws to you. Managemen't decision to do was directly caused by the ASA MEC ultimatum.

The XJT pilots on these boards may have been saying no pbs or we will vote no. The MEC has been open minded from the get go. Don't confuse the two.

Your MEC wants to reprogram smartpref so that its now prefbid. Of course they can't do that. Its apples and oranges on how the two work. It was disingenuous for the MEC to ask for that or they are just oblivious otherwise. Smartpref has proven to work with our phase 2 bidding.

The XJT MEC did not hold the line on anything dealing with this PBS issue. In fact, they provided ideas to get past this impass that didn't have a defined outcome one way or the other. The ASA MEC shot every one of them down because it didn't make sure it had an outcome of flight line for everyone. Their ultimatum led DIRECTLY to where we are now. It has NOTHING to do with the XJT MEC.

The arbitrator will probably decide.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Management is behind smartpref because it actually comes to a scheduling conclusion without need a half dozen people manually manipulating everyone's lines in order to come up with something that works. If the ASA MEC would withdraw their ultimatum, maybe they can start working together again.

This is just an issue with PBS. It is, in fact, the XJT MEC who is negotiating in good faith and it is the ASA MEC who is setting ultimatums that are holding up everything. None of the other differences between the MECs have held up the negotiations. And now that the ASA MEC has dealt their ace, management is trying to move forward without them. That is the straight record!

I don't recall the company ever saying that. In fact, I've heard that the company wants to get rid of vacation low, the best thing about your PBS. How would that not be a concession for the XJT side? They would have to sweeten the pot a WHOLE LOT to get that passed. Or they can go with the PBS system that the XJT MEC supports that will maintain our QOL and wont require as much sweetening to get it passed.

If the blastmail sent out is bashing, then you guys need to get some thicker skin. It was just a letter relaying the facts. I'm sorry that the truth is equal to bashing the ASA MEC.;)

This is not about public battles. We are both losing the battle because of your MEC's flight line or no merger ultimatum.

I think most people will take status quo over having to vote for another concession. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. But the XJT MEC is not pushing this on you guys. They provided ideas that would get to a decision objectively yet your MEC has turned all of them down, even third party arbitration because it doesn't guarantee flight line for everyone.

Yeah, they didn't want to lose control of the MEC.


I don't know about no new aircraft. Our CPA with UAL calls for replacement rights of 75 aircraft and growth of 15 aircraft. And now management wants a dual class rj rate. Who knows?

You call section 26 concessionary? This section was there from the begging of the contract in 2004. Its boiler plate contract language unless you give up leverage to come up with rates for aircraft that may not exists for another 9 years. You need to reread that section. It only comes into play in very specific circumstances. That's all I'll say.

Are supposed to be working with? How do you work with an MEC who gives ultimatums and threatens to hold up the merger INDEFINITELY over it? Only managment can invoke section 26 and it was the ASA MEC who pushed them to play that card.

Lets just assume for the moment that your inference of the ASA MEC having a vote on the section 26 negotiations, and lets also assume that the ASA MEC would vote it down (a fair assumption), wouldn't we end up in the same place with the ASA MEC flight line or no merger ultimatum? Then what?

One party is being reasonable and the other one isn't. Make an educated, guess, if you can, on which one it is and that will give you the answer as to why we find ourselves in the current cluster.

[QUOTE=Captain Tony;1334052]I can't believe I'm even reading this. For two years, you guys have thumbed your noses at every single proposal management or L-ASA made. You have bragged how you will shut it down. You bragged the ASA MEC needs to stand aside and I just looked at the ALPA website and it shows that the MECs have agreed on all the sections of the contract. So I don't know what you are talking about. The only thing not agreed to is the PBS system. We are in this predicament only because your MEC refuses to listen to anything other than flight line. So management thinks they found away around your MEC. This has nothing to do with the XJT MEC. Personally, I'm not even against the ASA MEC being in these negotiations with some caveats. I just want all you guys to understand that this is the direct result of your MEC and management's counter to their ultimatum. We will both end up worse for it.

And we all know what management decided to do now that the ASA MEC did not want to compromise or even try to get past this impass with the XJT MEC with third party neutral arbitration.

Well, if you don't know why we would think smartpref is better, then it just goes to show that the ASA MEC didn't do their research. Also, smartpref doesn't require people to manually socialize EVERYONE'S lines AFTER the bid window closes in order to make it work. Flight line could be made to work for us, according to the scheduling committee. But it would require vast work rule improvements overt the existing ones. Seeing that management doesn't mind flight line WITHOUT vacation low (the best thing about your pbs), how could it be made so it wouldn't be a concession for the XJT side? I thought you guys did your research yet you keep asking the same questions over and over again.

Except with that one live bid sheet the company has already "pre manipulated" what it wants due to globalization. At minimum every month 30% of line holders will be globalized. this number can go as high as 70% in holiday months. Work rules limiting this just make it worse. We know this because we already tested it with our work rules.

Nope. Your see when you fail to have language in your contract that prevents using bankrupt airline rates in an arbitration the arbitrator can use them when calculating a new rate.

Unless you negotiate work rules to keep this from happening! If you guys would just agree to at least talk about something other than flightline we could be talking about this stuff. Its very easy to put something in the contract such as "the restricted group can never exceed 20% in a bidding cycle". Both sides can be happy! If you still dont like it, fine....we are still waiting for another system suggestion! Any time a group gives an ultimatum in negotiations you are never going to come to an agreement. Dont like smartpref? Fine, no problem. Show us something other than flightline!

I guess you're new to the airlines. Never say never. If it goes to Arbitration it's out of your MECs, the Company and all your pilots hands.

Did you ever think why the Company called you just a couple of weeks prior to 9E vote. The clock has started and now you can't stop it.

There you go again with the 'one bid sheet' thing again. If they actually looked at smartpref, they would have realized that it doesn't work off a bid sheet theory. All the parameters the company can set are in the work rules page. Most of those parameters would be contractual without the company being able to socialize everyone's line after the bid closes.

And you can thank your MEC's flight line or no merger ultimatum for the company playing that card on us. Thanks a lot.

Dream On
 

Whipsaw? The majors must be fools! Haven't they heard? A shortage of pilots is right around the corner! :eek:

Thanks for posting the rates johnso and Jetblast.

Are you saying the arbitrator will come up with an "under-ride" so that ERJ pilots would get paid a lower rate when flying a larger aircraft?

A word to a senator is worth two on a forum
 

Some of us aren't probably gonna sit around and wait for the "Race to the Bottom" to cross the finish line. IMHO when things get too out of whack they tend to correct in one way or another. And since most pilots tend to be pro-active rather than reactive....*skips to end*

....long story short I wrote my Senator today. Told him the industry needs reform. In hind sight it was probably a funny sounding letter. It sounded like "FAA....revolving door management...race to bottom...better work rules in China...going overseas...."

Still, beats having another mid-day crash pad pity party, although those are ok with RUM.

12 HOURS OR MORE!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

You are saying it was disingenuous to ask Smart Pref to reprogram so that it could handle CDO's? What about providing vacation conflicts? What about providing an award analysis to ensure seniority was respected?

Smart Pref has not been fully proven - the pool of pilots and pairings your are currently running could be done by a any competent computer user and an excel spread sheet. Ramp it up to parallel a full bid for one of your bases and then we can see if it actually works.

The ASA MEC is backing a proven system that receives very favorable reviews from the pilot groups who use it. What you are asking them to do is take a concession and they are unwilling.

So, if you keep shouting out a lie eventually it will come true?


One party publicly mudslinging is reasonable?

Again, this could have been resolved a year ago but there were so many sticking points where your MEC took extra time to protect your interests. Now you are crying foul when the ASA MEC is protecting the interest of their pilot group. A bit hypocritical?

There is a huge difference between protecting interests and giving a straight ultimatum. That is downright unproffesional and childish and if you cant see that I truly do not know what to tell you.

FlightLine PBS doesn't work for the L-XJT pilots because it honors seniority. The ERJ side knows they will get the short end of the stick in the seniority list integration so they are looking for any system that will socialize.

The ASA MEC does not agree they have issued an ultimatum. As it stands, the ASA MEC will not drop Flightline for Smartpref. As much potential as I see in Smartpref, it is still unproven and until full base bid runs are accomplished, it is not reasonable to expect the ASA MEC to back Smartpref.

The company is playing this for all it's worth to encourage whipsaw between the groups. I am honestly more concerned with their actions than continuing to promote discord between our pilot groups.

That was unhelpful.

Then I say GREAT! Lets do a test run with work rules in place for all schedules. If we cant get it to work case closed. Now we just have to get your MEC to agree to that! They have been unwilling to date.

It's even easier than that - expand the XJT test run to all line holders in a base and prove that it works. It's already in use, so it should be quick and easy to implement If the XJT MEC can prove that it works for an entire base of line bidders, I'll lead the educational campaign on the ASA side. I'd personally give up vacation low outright to do away with the multiple bid sheets and to know my schedule a full week earlier. But prove the program works first in a full scale real world environment!

BTW, the ASA MEC was willing to do parallel test runs but the company is unwilling to fund it, and Smart pref won't do it for free because the modifications to fit our work rules would have been too extensive. If this is something the XJT MEC actually wants, the burden falls on them to make it work then sell it.