XJT Whipsaw
 

Just read your newest comm.

JCBA negotiations are on hold as all three parties take stock of their current positions. The new equipment process has no connection to JCBA negotiations. Any terms and conditions reached will only apply to Contract 2004. When a decision is made to return to the table and resume JCBA negotiations, we will redirect appropriate focus to the JCBA. Until that time, our primary focus will be completing the terms and conditions for new equipment.


I wanted to know why our negotiating committee wasn't meeting with the XJT guys and company. Turns out, the ASA MEC wants to to keep meeting but your side is more interested is getting a whipsaw going between our two carriers. How can your MEC actually believe that whatever comes out of this will not affect the joint contract? Would have made much more sense to have both groups in there to get a new 70 seat rate and have it become retroactive than to start this whipsaw BS. We need to be united and come out with one voice on what that rate will be instead of entertaining this obvious ruse by the company to divide us even more.
Unbelieveable.

You should go on the majors board and actually look and see whats going on at united right now.

Yup, unfortunately if I had to guess, United and Delta are both about to do to you what just happened to Pinnacle. Prepare for multiple meat missles minus the lube.

No way dude, XJT has way too much self respect to let that happen.

They will burn it down for the sake of industry!

Ummmm no.

In the end, it's each man for himself regardless of what forum ****-talking is going on. That's why the 9E TA passed by 85%. I would love to see some major movement happen to 'stick it to the man', but nothing ever will.

I wouldn't say self respect, but more of a "We've seen this movie before" with pay cuts and flow throughs, and won't buy it. I may be wrong - maybe the same people who voted for a pay cut will remain scared, because "I've gotta have a job, and I've gotta fly airplanes".

Me personally, my givea****-o-meter is pegged at zero. I used to pride myself in on time departures and going above and beyond, but not with this company. Working with idiot gate agents, rampers, dispatchers and schedulers as well as fighting to get pay restored just takes a toll on you.

As for the OP question, what I read in the email was that the XJT MEC is debating bringing in ASA for discussions with the new rates. Not so much as a whipsaw, but ASA reps are getting labeled as unprofessional.

Source? 10 Characters

I don't have such a burning desire to fly an airplane that I would subject myself the the wages Pinnacle just voted in. I would rather watch my airline burn. I plan on getting out of the industry and maybe flight instruction part time for fun if we get Pinnacled. I find it sad most of you voted to come sit short call reserve for less than I made flight instructing. Delta isn't hiring this year. There is a excellent track record of flow throughs not working out. I think between Compass and Pinnacle there will be way more promises tan jobs for a long time even if Delta doesn't back out on their promises.

Congratulations on being such cheap *****s. To the Pinnacle guys who voted no, I'm truly sorry you are surrounded by weaklings.

Quite possibly the person with least class ^

Que line bidding VS. PBS in ........

Moved to relevant thread.

You can NOT say this with certainty. You simply can't until you've experienced the same situation.

NOW they want to give negotiating a try? The ASA MEC has shot down every possible resolution to our Pbs debacle. Maybe they want to sit in on the negotiations to see how give and take works.

This is directly caused by the ASA MEC giving management their "flight line or no merger" ultimatum. You want unity? Tell your MEC to drop their ultimatum and get on board with smartpref in order to continue back on joint negotiations.

Actually, I can. I consider what I make now to barely be worth showing up to work for. My biggest justification for staying is the free international business travel. If I knew I had a pay cut and a furlough right around the corner I would say let it burn. There are other things I could do while making as much money or more and be home every night.

This industry gets less and less desirable by the day.

100% burn it down if they try a pay cut. I'll leave the industry before I help bring it down any further than it already has gone.

We support our MEC and we support Flightline...I'm OK with just staying separate and so should you since you are working on plan B and C...Don't worry about it...

We both get to keep the systems we like this way...

So you are telling me that you want a PBS system that is globalized and doesn't hold to seniority 100% where as flight line does hold to seniority? You are the same person who, if we do say, "fine, lets take smartpref" will complain and say "this PBS is horrible and we never should have given up line bidding" because a globalized system is horrible! All of us will hate PBS if it is globalized!

P.S. The bidding software and line vs PBS is only just a piece of the entire pie of why our unions are having problems getting along.

How is it that paper bid vs PBS is the biggest issue for the ASA/XJT MECs? There are far bigger issues to worry about.

That's what this forum portrays is the largest issue, but it's not. It's only a small issue, there are other items the 2 MEC's couldn't be farther apart on, most center around $.

Fine by me. Just stating facts and letting the poster know who is preventing unity, the ASA MEC and their ultimatum. Like I said, go ahead and keep it up, we will all find out what the final outcome of the company negotiating dual class RJ rates. My guess is that it would end up worse for the ASA side.

No, just saying that its the ASA MEC who has turned down every single idea to get this PBS issue resolved.

Only for the ASA MEC. They have literally set a flight line PBS or no merger ultimatum. They have tuned down ways to move forward because they are being intransigent, like they've been from the beginning.

How is backing SmartPref and considering nothing else any less of an ultimatum? Suprisingly the MEC is doing exactly what we want by backing Flightline. We have already been through this debate. We have already looked at the options. Why would we go through it again when we have already chosen?

· Globalization: In a globalized system such as SmartPref, for the globally constrained pilots, seniority can be overlooked if the solution does not meet the Company’s requirements. Even though a pilot may be senior enough to hold certain trips bid, those trips may go to another pilot because it could be required to complete the overall global solution. In a non-Global system like PrefBid, just as with Hard-Line bidding, pilot’s bids are not compared to anyone else’s bid when awarding their schedule. A big misconception about Flightline is that it “globalizes” with manual intervention, that assertion is incorrect.

· Credit Window Control: Global systems can easily restrict pilot earnings and schedule quality by limiting the credit hours a pilot can obtain. Pilots will lose money if the averages are constrained to 75 hours. Pilot surveys have shown individual needs for credit vary, with the averages being 80-85 hours credit. What other employee groups are forced to take a 20% pay cut from month to month based on the Company’s desires?

· Customization and System Faults: Here are a few:
1) Currently, CDOs cannot be broken out and awarded as a pure CDO line in the SmartPref system. Absent this capability, pilots could easily end up with a CDO adjacent to a 4 day trip.
2) SmartPref does not have multiple bid sheets and does not have an unstack bid sheet. Lack of multiple bid sheets could easily result in pilots being awarded trips that they did not desire.
3) SmartPref cannot currently extend vacation, whereas it is possible with PrefBid and Hard-Line bidding.


So L-XJT wants a system that doesn't respect seniority, allows the company to control your credit / pay each month more than you yourself can with flightline, makes it so we get less days off during vacation, etc. For a pilot group who doesn't want to take concessions, smartpref is a concession in itself, and a hell of a big one resulting in direct reductions in pay and QOL.

I dont have to have flightline, come up with a system and call it "L-XJT PBS" for all I care, but don't propose something that cuts my pay, time off, and seniority.

Because of how many freaking lifers we have, that's why.

Have any of you crj guys actually read the PBS report put out by the l-XJT scheduling committee? Has you mec come up with a comparison on anything other than flight line? Here's the way I see it and may be wrong. The Asa side has a pride problem. They sold you on flight line that it was the best thing out there. Here come XJT scheduling telling you that smart pref is not only better but can do way more than the crap you guys like so much. Your flight line could be so much better but your work rules suck ass. Our line bidding is a pain in the transition but our work rules are better than most majors. And the guys that are hell bent on keeping flight line are on full time alpa flight loss. 5 guys to do flight line? We have less and actually have to build lines. Also think about who runs this thing. Senior guys who don't want to give up anything but they don't realize that they are senior and their QOL won't be affected. Before you guys start pointing fingers just look in house first. You didn't buy us so get over it. Time to get a jcba and a sli. If we don't that's fine since l-XJT is making money and your aren't. Plus you work for delta and they will someday piece your flying out since you are not cost competitive.

[QUOTE=Nevets;1332113]Fine by me. Just stating facts and letting the poster know who is preventing unity, the ASA MEC and their ultimatum. Like I said, go ahead and keep it up, we will all find out what the final outcome of the company negotiating dual class RJ rates. My guess is that it would end up worse for the ASA side.

You guys do realize this is just one big game for management dont you... CT is probably laughing his A off reading this thread. Seriously think about as upper management............................ Both groups can't agree, it's fine with them. Most of the synergies are already realized. They are now coming to you as a whipsaw. Skywest guys already have a higher hourly then ASA so it's no problem for them to pay a few dollars more. That said, ASA and XJET 50 payscales are almost the same. What do you think you could negotiate for 70 seat rates that would be more cost competetive then asa or skywest... It's true you guys have some awesome QOL stuff in your contract that we all want and should fight for as a unified group. Those QOL improvements cost money and in general your contract is a little more costly then ours. Sooooo all that said, You would have to undercut ASA if you think you are going to "put the screws" to us...Is that what the intent of your mec is? If it is then we have two mecs that have totally been beaten by management.

In closing, you all look like bickering children. That's how management looks at it too. I'm almost 100 percent sure that this whole negotiating rates is so that they can get what they want out of a combined contract or create one of the most epic whipsaws of all time, all because some grumpy middle aged men never learned to compromise. Saying things like "go ahead and keep it up" and management hates your side more makes BH cry tears of happiness. Skywest may just be starting the most epic union busting campaign of all time.

skyw/xjet/asa.... The only way the pilots will advance is through 1 list, one contract, and one company.

Time to get a jcba and a sli. If we don't that's fine since l-XJT is making money and your aren't. Plus you work for delta and they will someday piece your flying out since you are not cost competitive.[/QUOTE]

See again more idiotic posting.

1. What the hell is l-xjt or l-asa... we aren't an F'ing legacy, there is no legacy involved with regionals.

2. It's one combined company on a single ops certificate. XJET combined really hasn't made any money at all since the merger but the combined company may return to profitability sometime this year....

3. You work work for delta too man. It's funny i swear when I leave atl in an RJ, and im following an ERJ, the guy in front of me says acey too. Now you work for AMR/USA too..... and also for SKYW.

See again more idiotic posting.

1. What the hell is l-xjt or l-asa... we aren't an F'ing legacy, there is no legacy involved with regionals.

2. It's one combined company on a single ops certificate. XJET combined really hasn't made any money at all since the merger but the combined company may return to profitability sometime this year....

3. You work work for delta too man. It's funny i swear when I leave atl in an RJ, and im following an ERJ, the guy in front of me says acey too. Now you work for AMR/USA too..... and also for SKYW.[/QUOTE]

I work for L-GoJet

:D

hahaha!

woh, don't quote me as somebody else there.

I work for L-GoJet

:D[/QUOTE]

Things are really turning around in this industry, the GoJet guys are making fun of the other regionals now! All Pinnacle's fault, soon GoJet guys will be calling the rest of us bottom feeders.

Fyi. Legacy means : of, relating to, or being a previous or outdated.

When guys here say Legacy they are referring to the "old" or formerly known. When we call airlines Legacy such as AA is because of how long they've been in operation and compared to the competition they are Legacy or the remaining ones. But you work at GoJet so I am not expecting much out of you!

See again more idiotic posting.

1. What the hell is l-xjt or l-asa... we aren't an F'ing legacy, there is no legacy involved with regionals.

2. It's one combined company on a single ops certificate. XJET combined really hasn't made any money at all since the merger but the combined company may return to profitability sometime this year....

3. You work work for delta too man. It's funny i swear when I leave atl in an RJ, and im following an ERJ, the guy in front of me says acey too. Now you work for AMR/USA too..... and also for SKYW.[/QUOTE]

No not idiotic. I don't work for delta. Dont have delta benefits or amr benefits. So if we don't have a jcba and a sli and delta starts piecing out your flying, guess what furloughs won't be on the erj XJT side...again if you look at the Skywest earnings call, the erj side is making a profit while as a whole XJT is slightly losing. Now simple math would be if one entity is making money but overall a loss, the loss has to come from somewhere, and that would be your side my friend. I am not trying to knock you since I want this crap done yesterday so we can move on as one real pilot group. I mthink you crj guys have to start being eyes wide open instead of eyes shut. Erj guys were like that at the beginning about no PBS. Now we are on board with a pbs after seeing what it could do for our QOL.

Seriously? For so long the XJT MEC has been crying 'No contract with PBS' and now you want to call out the ASA MEC?

The ASA MEC keeps shooting down SmartPref because the SmartPref programmers were unwilling or unable to fix the software to deal with several issues. The XJT MEC does not support PBS in the first place but seems to have sold you on an unproven, sub par program.

Take a look at the industry as a whole. Airline pilot groups with Flightline have positive outlooks on PBS. Airline pilot groups without Flightline generally do not.

If the XJT MEC had not held the line on so many areas, we could have had a contract by now. Retro pay, no PBS, our work rules or no work rules, etc. Unfortunately, the XJT MEC's inflexibility made the bed we are currently laying in.

Burn it down if we don't get retro pay. Burn it down if we get PBS. When the time comes, 90% say burn it down but 85% vote for cuts.

Welcome to the 15% club. You'll be comforted to know the future of your industry is safely in the hands of spineless whiners.

Things are really turning around in this industry, the GoJet guys are making fun of the other regionals now! All Pinnacle's fault, soon GoJet guys will be calling the rest of us bottom feeders.

Fyi. Legacy means : of, relating to, or being a previous or outdated.

When guys here say Legacy they are referring to the "old" or formerly known. When we call airlines Legacy such as AA is because of how long they've been in operation and compared to the competition they are Legacy or the remaining ones. But you work at GoJet so I am not expecting much out of you![/QUOTE]


Thanks for clearing that up. It makes complete sense now.

this will not be a concessionary contract or there will be no contract. I can live with what i have and have the ability to feed and live quite well without this industry. That's called thinking ahead

He didn't seem optimistic about much when I stopped him in the lounge recently. Certainly didn't share in the bravado ASA pilots have been afflicted with on and off since the merger was announced.

You will not have the option to vote on a pay rate. Your MEC will do it for you.

They haven't even gotten to the financial cuts to the XE side yet. You think this is a stumbling block just wait.

Pictures at six!

There are only a few items the MECs are apart on BUT when it comes to ASA management wanting financial cuts you can bet XE items will be at the top of the list after the 9E deal.