Nevets, this is the heart of the debate. Your side doesn't like flightline because it doesn't meet your needs. Fine....Our side needs multiple bid sheets for multiple bid strategies. If you've never used PBS, you won't understand why that is important, but anyone who has used PBS, understands why that is important.

If our side needs multiple bid sheets, and Smartpref won't do that....How is saying no to Smartpref for us any different than your side saying no to Flightline?..It's the same thing.

Here are two possible solutions:

1. Your side can start using Smartpref for phase 1 and then we can compare the two systems in live action.

2. We find a third system that meets both requirements.

I'm ready for this all to be over as well...however...

...I will vote no for an overall sum less than what we have now (L-XJT). If we have to accept a new scheduling system (whether it be SP or FL), that's fine...but the company will have to pay dearly for any departure from line-bidding...read *concession*. In the end, I'm a NO VOTE for any TA that doesn't sum up to a complete positive in $$ and QoL.

FUPM.

I am all for running a parallel phase 1 test bid. I am also all for option 2. If you guys lift your ultimatum next week we can get busy on this.

These ideas were turned down by your MEC.

Nevets, as the saying goes...You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.....

There is absolutely nothing that can stop you guys from using Smartpref for phase 1 just like you are doing for phase 2. Why don't you guys start using Smartpref for phase 1? What is stopping you? Prove us wrong. If it is successful, then your pilots will be as happy as our pilots are with flightline.....What is stopping you? It isn't our MEC.

Why don't you push your MEC to implement Smartpref for phase 1 bidding? We aren't stopping you. If you guys like it as much as we like flightline, maybe you can convince the majority here.

Because in order to do this we would have to negotiate work rules for PBS and have our pilots vote on them.

Get busy then....We already have done that and are happy with our results...If you can do better, then go ahead and do it and stop talking about it...

This is the essence of the debate....We have a negotiated PBS system that is in use and is liked....You have a theoretical PBS system that hasn't been negotiated, isn't in use, and isn't liked by your own pilots....

Why would we want to swap out a negotiated system that works and is liked for a theoretical system that isn't currently used or liked?

What does it say to our side when your side doesn't even want it?

The company has said they won't sign a contract without PBS. We are trying to compromise by finding a PBS system that preserves what we currently have. This is why right now management only sees one group willing to compromise. ALPA national agrees. You cant draw a line in the sand during negotiations Joe. Thats when they stop becoming negotiations.

Do you realize how absurd that argument is? You just said that management has drawn a line in the sand by saying that they won't sign a contract without PBS, and then you went on to say that you "can't draw a line in the sand during negotiations"....Which is it? Are you implying that only management can draw a line in the sand?

By the way....We told your side two years ago that management wasn't going to sign an agreement without PBS...But your side didn't believe us...

Yes and you have tried to get our guys to cut language for those rules.

So you have no works rules for either the XJT side or the ASA side. Where we have work rules for the ASA and none for the XJT side.

Would it be easier to negotiate work rules for 1 side since the other already has them? Would it be easier to program changes to a PBS system for 1 side or 2 sides?

The company said no in DEC.

With the problems that you are having just on a small scale use at this time do you have enough faith in SP to turn it on for 4700 pilots? Have you fixed the CDO issue?

Lets tell the truth. Company does not want SP on. They know that it will not work in a full bidding cycle with all the pilots in all the bases.

You must be like your MEC, not living in the reality of the situation. Why? Because that is what our MEC decided to compromise on to move this merger forward. Despite the line pilots preferring our line bidding, they moved their position to smartpref. Now its up to your MEC to compromise. Or the company will start placing dual class RJs somewhere other than ASA. Anyway, this is all about moving goal posts. Smartpref is being implemented, its bugs are being worked out, its being reprogrammed for our work rules, its being tested for improvements, and its working like its supposed to be to the satisfaction of most. So you have to change your argument which was that it had no customers, its unproven, no work rules, everyone will hate it, etc. Also, its been shown that flight line in its current incarnation would be a decrease in QOL to the XJT side. And that's with vacation low, which has already been conceded. Smartpref doesn't require vacation low so no negotiating capital will be required to keep it in flight line, which like I said, would be a decrease in QOL anyway. Make sense yet?


The company said yes in the summer but your MEC turned dual tracks down back then. Plus, there are no problems with smartpref. The bugs that it does have are being worked out but most everyone that has used it has been happy with it. By the way, flight line didn't have the ability to award lines with CDOs. Our contract doesn't allow building of any lines with it so the CDO reprogram has been put on hold for now. But it was in the works, just not a priority at this time.

This is false. They will take smartpref or some watered down version of flight line without vacation low. But they prefer that smartpref comes up with a viable solution the first time without subjective human interaction, manipulation of thresholds, unstacking, sort bias, coin tosses, etc.

Vacation low has not been conceded.

Maybe not publicly. In any case, you don't think management will want that gone if we stay with flight line? Everything I've heard is, yes. It will take lots of negotiating capital to keep it that can be used somewhere else just to keep something that would be concessionary to the LXJT side.

Nevets, please stop with the MEC Talking Points. It's so transparent.

I havent been told or given anything to say on behalf of anyone. And that is what I was saying about some of your guys' post. Every time something goes down, there are a handful of your guys on the pipe all saying and asking the same leading questions.

Going back to the beginning of this forum, in my opinion every change have to be to be for good and better or don't even try to change. Taking a dine or penny less of what I'm making now or flying higher capacity aircraft for the same as now. I'm not following the flag****ters on it I say Burn,burn,burn mother....,burn,burn....Now on PBS, SP deal ask everyone that had an opportunity of using both line bidding and PBS which one the will pick 100% of them will use line bidding. The only people supporting PBS is the first 300 top seniority or who'd never used anything else....

I'm with you except that part! Line bidding completely, totally, 100% SUCKS compared to pref bidding! It's not even close, and nearly every old ASA pilot agrees. I want NO PART of sorting through 300+ lines every month seeing which one comes closest to what I want in terms of credit, days off, which days I'm working, what time I start and where I overnight! Pref bidding is far superior.

And the standard point would be used;

Line bidding sucked the way ASA used to do it. So prefbiddig is better than what was used before.

However, just like many XJT pilots don't know about flightline, an vast majority of ASA pilots DON'T know about the line bid work rules on the ERJ side.

AdOpt sorts the lines for us, if you want to use that feature.

A lot of people on here keep mentioning that most to 100% of L-ASA pilots would chose PBS over Line-Bidding hands down. That's a really interesting perspective. I think it's a bit misleading and would like to mention to anyone on the outside looking in that my perspective is completely different.

I look around at many different areas of the company including many that don't have anything to do with me. It's nice to build a realistic overall view opposed to the narrow selective view that it would appear many portray here. People say the word "most" and "every" with a lot of conviction. I can't say that "every" one I speak to likes PBS over line-bidding because I haven't spoken to "every" one. However, the majority that I have spoken to (about 200-300 FO's and junior captains) wish they could go back to the old way of bidding. Just because it works for you and the guy next to you in seniority doesn't mean it works for "most" or "100%" of the group.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Sorting lines isn't enough. You still have to make decisions/compromises about which pre-built line best meets your needs. Bidding on the pairings allows you to build the optimum schedule for you with the remaining available pairings.

Wow, I haven't met a single person that said they want to go back to what we used to have.

To clarify even further....I dont agree with you at all. When i say MOST i mean MOST pilots i talk to or fly with like PBS way better than our old way. Am I speaking about ALL....nope. But I cant even think of one person that does not like our current PBS system.

I am not saying it is the end all be all. However I am saying that compared to our old line bidding system...this is better hands down. Just pure fact that you can have such a customized schedule to what you want, sells it for me. Did i get 8 days off in a row with line bidding....heck no. It mixes things up to the point that line bidding just did not provide.

Just my two cents, as i am sure the next poster will have his/hers. I think most people here at L-ASA are happy with pbs, but would like to see some of the work rules, trading, and loop holes improved. Which all really has to do with the contract and not the bidding system.

It isn't too different from what we had before except your trip trading rules are much more liberal. Close enough? Oh yeah, you have add pay for picking up during vacation where you've conflicted out a couple of other trips and bad day, worse day. We know very well about conflict bidding. It's how we are able to extend vacations with Flightline as well. SmartPref will not allow this sort of conflict if you are constrained.

Constraints in a tough month could get into the upper echelons very easily with SmartPref system. The hype is work rules can change this. Problem is that if you write rules for this and restrict it, there is no resolution for this if a large stack occurs except to let it go higher. (Basically waive rules you've fought for) There is NO safety valve except higher global constraints. Just because you can see it doesn't make it suck any less.

Do we work for the same airline?????? In the last 2 years I have met maybe 2 or 3 people that want to go back to line bidding at ASA. Being able to pick the pairing you want, layovers you want, report time you want, and day you want each week is priceless (yes even if you have to work weekends you still get selection with Thursday through Saturday starts, I'm not just talking for the senior people). In all honesty the 2 or 3 I have ran into that didn't like PBS were because they didn't take the time to learn it or ask questions. As a matter of fact, all 3 of them thought vacation low built their schedule to 65 hours, when in fact it tries to build it to 75 and is ok with finishing it at 65 as long as you conflict accordingly. (still a confusing concept for some). So, they were mostly mad at the fact they got more than 8 days of work in a vacation month which was due to their own lack of understanding how it works.

I don't know about this. Out of hundreds of ASA folks I've spoke with, I would estimate 2-5 expressed displeasure to the extent of going back to line bidding. Afterburn81 for some reason is embarrassed by his pilot group and has been trying to distance himself since this merger started.

Can you honestly say that you are proud of each and every guy that you work with? That the pilot group you work with is doing everything possible with a great deal of professionalism, maturity and plain old respect to see to it that this merger results in a fair unity?

I separate myself from people (no matter who they work for) that are knowingly, and willfully fighting the grain on this merger. I'm talking about selfish inconsiderate egotistical people. You know they are out there. You know they are a large part of the problem. If you can't see this then I really feel for you man. I do. I also apologize for being embarrassed by people like that.

I take pride in what I do. I'd like to think I do it well. But I'm only one person that should be unified amongst many others with the same desires and pride. However that is not the case. And now more than ever it's evident that selfish people are ruining this industry. Maybe you should open your eyes a little. There's a lot going on out there. But maybe you don't want to know. After all, ignorance is bliss.......

My bad on that number. I was thinking of the number of pilots on the 7/9. I was trying to say most of the junior FO's and Captains that I speak to. Not 200-300 people saying the same thing. Came out wrong.

I'm not trying to sell line bidding on anyone, but if anyone wants to see a bid packet with the lines please PM me your email address and date of hire (for seniority purposes) and I will send you out a bid packet and show what you can hold. I've done it before in IAD on a long sit and I'll do it again. It isn't some God fearing device created by the Illuminati like some ASA folks make it out to be. Quite simple and I get my schedule very early in the month too.

And if I feel like it, hit up the Initial Window to improve it.

I recall when we did line bidding, I would eventually end up with the exact schedule I wanted. A little strategic bidding on the right line and you can swap out what you didn't like in open time to finish it off. Worked every time. I was much more satisfied each month with my schedule.

Sure there is a little compromise here and there. But there were no hidden tricks on how to manipulate the schedule into doing things that are completely counterintuitive to the desired outcome. If you had to make a small sacrifice, someone else did too. PBS awards EVERYTHING to the most senior bidder. EVERYTHING.... No sharing what so ever. In line bidding if you want the holiday off, you will have to work weekends. Or sacrifice another day off that you wanted. PBS will just give it all to you if you can hold it. That causes anyone even remotely close to the bottom of the list to have very little say in their schedule. And the whole, they would have been on reserve anyway thing is a load of crap. How long does reserve run at XJET? How long does it run at ASA? For some reason it seems to be less at XJET.

I these are the main differences that people are hung up on. I can see why people like PBS. It's 100% seniority driven. Not knocking it, just a comparison that's all. I'm sure someone is going to get their panties in a bunch and become all defensive. No need.

I believe the tone of your rhetoric is just as divisive in achieving "fair unity". No, I don't believe everyone I work with is a great person or pilot. Lots of folks out there for #1, and I've seen a lot of integrity sacrificed in the last 6ish years. Not nearly everyone is this way though, and when you portray yourself as superior to the pilot group as a whole entity, it comes off offensively.

Not that I take anything on here personally, just an observation of your posts.

AB81. Not trying to always argue your posts although I'm sure it is starting to look that way.

Reserve at XJT is "less" than ASA because they were having more movement. If you take the % of people on reserve in each category it is less with PBS, you can't look at time on reserve because that depends on movement.

Who do you think you are? Seriously?

Yeah, I was just replying to someone who didn't like line bidding because he didn't want to look through 300 lines. Not all line bidding systems and work rules are the same. I have never sorted through lines because I have adopt sort them for me according to the preferences I select.

Actually it's a lot more than add pay and bad day worse day trades. And my understanding is that flight line does NOT bid into conflicts with your vacation day and therefore dropping those trips into open time, like our line bidding your comparing it too. Anyway, smartpref doesn't work like that either but you can maximize your vacation even if you're in the constrained group.

Your understanding is lacking. You conflict out what the system is allowed to chose from making so that there is nothing else to award to because it all conflicts. It is part of the system logic. You're not as educated on it you like think.You can not do with the Messiah's chosen system because it orders ALL the trips. No escape.

Good grief. Didn't read it all did you. It's your trip trading rights and how its done. I understand it better than you know my system. Get over it. BTW, the globalizing that is done within your line bidding... It is completely mitigated by those great trip trading rules you have.

Relax. If you re-read what I wrote. I'm only disagreeing with your comparison of how flight line's conflict bidding compare to our work rules for vacation. It's not the same. And like I said, it's more than add pay, bad day worse day and whatever trip trading rights you think we have.

It's not worth getting worked up about. I tried pointing out a a different view and all you get is crap for it.

This thread is labeled "XJT Whipsaw" is it not? This refers to a tactic of poising two groups against one another. The irony of this thread is that it constantly veers into doing just that. Until people start trying to see things in another way (not necessarily liking it. Just seeing it that way) the whipsawing will continue. You can see it in how people get defensive over stupid details and like to call you out on it rather than give you the benefit of the doubt.

My posts are more of an eye opener than someone trying to debate what's better or worse. It's tough watching this all out war that doesn't have to be. Especially when you see what it has done to airlines in the past. Just another thing to do think about.