I gotta say, at times reading this thread my head is spinning. I honestly have no clue who works for who anymore. It seems like both sides are bickering about the same things in opposing manners. From someone that understands compromise (for a good cause) and is not afraid of change thus not caring if my job exists when this all blows over, I think we are totally screwed.

Not just from the vibes you get from the forum regulars but from what I hear around the line, we are going in the wrong direction. We took management's bait and they are stoked Im sure.

This sounds great, lets try and make this happen. Im honestly not afraid of it not working...because I want to find the best system! If it ends up being flightline then so be it...I just want to make sure we fully test and run both systems equally.

The arbitrator can do what ever he wants. Your statement is not likely but you never know. It is highly likely that the rate will be lower than most because of the 9E numbers. That will hurt when there were other options at the time than going into negotiations for a rate.

If it does go to arbitration the MEC nor the pilot group will have any control of the outcome.

.....and why are we in the position that it might have to go to arbitration? Oh yea, because you guys refused to negotiate in good faith with us so now we have to do it ourselves. I really hope flightline is worth it for you guys!

This is exactly where the argument for SmartPref fails every time. There haven't been any work rules negotiated for SmartPref yet. To assume you are going to negotiate all the rules you want for that system is very naive.

If you are brining on a new system, you test it countless times, figure out what work rules you need to make it work, negotiate those rules, THEN draft a TA. To think we would try to bring on a new system before negotiating anything is moronic. We cant negotiate any work rules or even figure out what we need for that matter if the other side is unwilling to talk. Why would you think we would implement it prior to negotiating work rules for it? Thats just plain dumb!

Why drag this out further? The ASA group has one that works and has support of the group. Once there is one MEC, your guys will just roll call vote everything. Why not go back and work on SmartPref then?

Trust me i wish it was that easy. We have determined (through a lot of gruling research) that flightline in its current form will not protect the current QOL of our pilot group as a whole. The goal of this joint contract is to ensure QOL and compensation at the very least stays the same but hopefully improves for both pilot groups. Just as you feel our line bidding would be a concession for you, we have proven flightline would be for us. The reason we are pushing Smartpref is because it is our belief that if your group gives us a chance, we can negotiate the most interactive, user friendly PBS system in the industry. It will truly be one of a kind, and one that other pilot groups will certainly take a good hard look at for their next contracts. We would NEVER ask you guys to agree to anything without first negotiating work rules for it and seeing them in action. Ill admit, if you look at smartpref without work rules it is awful. But if you look at what it will be with our current rules plus a few more, it is really something special.

Unfortunately what everyone is not discussing is that the company has offered a contract and it is an across the board cut in QOL, so they are NOT trying to maintain current status, all they want are cuts. And that was before the Pinnacle fiasco. it is only going to get worse for us.THIS is what is holding up the contract, NOT this mess with bidding.
We ALL want a good bidding system, but from our EXPERIENCE, anything with globablization is NOT good for the pilot group, only the company. No amount of work rules can change that. With what the company has already offered there is no way you can expect to negotiate the work rules you think you would need to make SmartPref acceptable. All you have to do to see how it turns out is look at Continental's pbs with globalization and it will end worse than that. We need to stop acting like children with this bidding snafu and see that the house is burning around us.

With that attitude you won't be earning any Starbucks. They probably won't even let you into the crew room on Acey Day.

Not sure where you are getting your info but it is pretty outdated. The company backed off their proposal asking for cuts when we asked them to show us in the books why they need them and they couldn't. That happened a long time ago.

But the current ERJ rates seem to be higher than industry-standard 70-seat rates. Either we have to believe that an arbitrator would impose a paycut on pilots for flying a larger aircraft, or we have to admit that the threat of a whipsaw between the two groups is pretty negligible. There's just not enough of a difference between the two rates for an arbitrator to come up with a new rate that is substantially below our 70-seat CRJ rate and yet remains above the current ERJ rates.

On January 5th, from the ASA MEC: "The remaining issues in the JCBA are mostly financial, job security, and of course, which bidding system to use. Another contributing reason for the slow pace of negotiations now is that many of the Company’s proposals have become regressive relative to both existing contracts. In some areas the Company’s proposals are worse than what is contained in other recent bankruptcy conditioned agreements."

Line bidding with your rules is not a concession. It merely takes longer than what we have now. The company will not accept line bidding. The ASA group did not stand against your line bidding. The company did.

You are incorrect again. The last pass from the company back in June and it is still their position. Your guys need to get back to table with our guys. There are still many open pieces that the company is stalling on. PBS is just a small piece of the pie so please stop pretending everything hinges on a bidding system. It doesn't. We will end up with a common position. If the company gets motivated to get a deal it will not be held up by a bidding system. Your MEC needs to quit stoking the fires of division.

We are not the enemy here. The company wants to pay you less and make you work more. The ASA pilots do not.

this is false, they absolutely were against our line bidding.

What do you mean takes longer...I have my schedule by the 10th of every month, when do you get yours?

The ASA MEC already knew that line bidding would not be part of the next contract, regardless. In that respect, Joe is correct.

Exactly. And when it comes time to negotiate those rules that you NEED the company is going to laugh in your face. They just aren't going to make the same mistake they made with us. They know what they need from PBS and that is a system like Skywest has. Not SmartPref or FlightLine.

Yes, that's what I wrote. They told crewing solutions to reprogram smartpref so that its prefbid. When they said no, the ASA guys said, "see, they can't program it to our parameters" or something to that effect. Not even prefibid had CDOs programmed into at first either, by the way. As for vacation conflicts, again, you just mentioning that points out that there is not an understanding of how smartpref works. The award analysis is being worked on.

It will be used for all phase 2 bidders. Which is probably more people than what you guys have bidding in your smaller bases.

And asking our group, who is happy with our line bidding by the way, to take prefbid is a concession. Not to mention that the best thing about it, vacation low, would be gone. If smartpref is not a concession for us, then it would be a QOL increase for you.

Again, if stating facts is mudslinging and telling lies, then I guess they are guilty as charged. Happy now?

Your own mec said that other than which pbs, only scope and pay are left. You can't do finish scope or pay until you have a complete scheduling section because rates are multipliers to the work rules. So in essence, they have admitted that they put the roadblock up over pbs. The only reason why your guys are not at the table with our negotiating a joint contract is because of their flight line or nor merger ultimatum.

The company negotiator asked them at the table if they were willing to hold up the merger over pbs vendor, not work rules, and they said yes. This was after multiple ideas to get past this roadblock that they turned down, including third party neutral arbitrator. They are indeed holding this up. If they weren't, management wouldn't be moving on to plan b and negotiating with the XJT side. Think about it. This isn't rocket science.

This is also false. They are unwilling now but they were willing last spring. There is no burden. The XJT MEC already compromised. The ASA MEC has not moved an inch.

Its the same work rules that would be negotiated under any pbs. Its matter of getting them to the right place. That task will be hard regardless of which pbs. We are talking about things like vacation and training credits, rigs, DPMs, MMG, line divisor, min days off, CDOs, hours of service, minimum rest, and a whole lot more things that fall just in the scheduling section. But smartpref does not require the capital to negotiate for vacation low.

Yeah, why is the ASA MEC dragging this out further? They can chose to send this disagreement to an arbitrator. For some reason they didn't like that idea.

See above. Of course the company is trying to get whatever cuts they can. That's their job. The ASA MEC said that the 3 things holding this up is pay, scope, and pbs. Well you if you aren't willing to lift your ultimatum on pbs, then negotiations are not going anywhere.

Speaking of your experience with globalization, what experience do you have with globalization? We can't even get to trying to see what rules we can negotiate for in smartpref because of the ASA MEC ultimatum. And if what you say is true, even with flight line, how can we expect to maintain the work rules, much less improve them, when the best thing about it, vacation low has already been given up? With a whole new scheduling section, ANY PBS will be unproven.

Keep throwing in the CAL system. Carmen solves to zero open time. That's the biggest issue with that system. Smartpref does NOT and CANNOT solve to zero open time.

We need to go back to the table? Its not us who are setting ultimatums. News flash, we are at the negotiating table. It just you guys that are missing because you refuse to take your fingers out of your ears. This is NOT a small piece of the pie. This pbs issue is what caused the company to negotiate rates for dual class RJs with the XJT side. If you want to keep saying that its not a big issue, go ahead and sit on the sidelines while the company uses an arbitrator decides the rates.

Let me put it this way. You say that if the company gets motivated enough, we will have a deal. What if the company was willing to pay $25 million more on the contract to get it done. Well, if the ASA MEC doesn't lift their ultimatum, how can the company negotiate with us?

I think Joe means that the ASA MEC was and still is against our line bidding and work rules.

Yes, they have already made it clear that they don't live vacation low. And smartpref does not require vacation low.

The thing that amazes me is how many guys are sold an SmartPref, yet have never actually seen it run a full bid solution. Those of us who like Flightline actually like it because we have seen it work and like the way it works, at least compared to what we came from. It isn't that we aren't willing to look at a different option, we just are remiss to give up what we have for a stack of unknowns, which is currently what SmartPref is for the ASA side. Show us what it does. Don't tell us....show us. Run a bid solution with it so we can compare.

I think they are just in panic mode now that there is real pressure to get the contract done. I have several issues with Flightline and Smart Pref does have potential, but the snake oil sales pitch has got to stop. If it's a good program, it will prove itself. If the XJT guys really are sold on it, why don't they create an MOU and change their bidding system now?

It's also funny how history keeps being revised. The ASA union research team asked for specific work rule modifications, but the Smart Pref team said it was too much and now some guys on here are claiming we were trying to recreate Prefbid. Then the Smart Pref rep send out his letter, basically telling the ASA MEC they were unprofessional and closing the door to further discussions.

Funny to me when the ASA guys say 'prove it' the response is 'you're not willing to listen'.

The "research" team didn't know what they were looking at. Maybe they should havedone some actual research before showing up and asking dumb questions. You dont walk into a Lexus dealership and act suprised they dont have a Mercedes. You also don't treat the lexus employees like garbage because you decide to ask questions about how to turn a Lexus into a Mercedes. It is also bad form to then play it off like you actually did your "research."

Having met and spoke with the people that did the research, this is no where near an accurate representation of them. They know exactly what they are doing and I don't envy the job they have getting this stuff worked out.

Wow. This contract will truly never happen. I really understand now. Its not the whole "you can lead a horse to water but cant make him drink" argument....its first trying to convience someone that they are a horse in the first place. What i mean by this is that these guys arent conspiring against us, they truly believe they are right. Sadly they will never look at the presentation by the XJT MEC, so they most likely will never see what this system can truly be. I think someone said it earlier and it makes a lot of sense: ask yourself one question. If flightline is such a massive concession for the XJT guys (and it is) that they are unwilling to accept it, then logic would tell you that what they are proposing must be a massive improvement to what the ASA guys have now. If we arent willing to switch to anything less than what we have now, then this would have to be equal at the very least. Management WILL NOT sign a contract containing flightline unless its without vacation low, this system provides those same benifits but does not require it. So even if we agree to flightline it would have to be without vacation low, are you guys ok with that? I know we arent.

Re: Regarding SmartPref solutions
 

SmartPref is being run parallel to the EWR and CLE secondary bid schedule this week. (For February, Relief Line holders, & Reserves)

IIRC we have already run a solution for EWR on the January schedule, and most of those awards were manually placed by Crew Scheduling.

So, there is, and will be HARD data for your JNC / MEC to look at if they want to.

So, following your line of reasoning: you have it firsthand (or even a reliable second hand) from someone in Mgmt (who actually has the juice to make it a reality) that XJT managment is anxious to sign on to a system that is a "massive improvement" over what we ASA guys have now. You guys must be really good to talk them into that. The stars are really lining up. Isnt it great to be the smartest guys in the room? By the way, Ive got a really nice bridge to sell you. Goes over the East River, Roebling built it, great investment.
For you my friend, I make special deal.....

Talk about not knowing you are a horse.... Some posters on these interweb boards seem to have it all figured out, really KNOW what management wants. Absolutely KNOW what the "other" MEC thinks, wants, did or said behind closed doors. Turns out, they are not just conspiring against you, but sadly delusional and need to be saved from themselves.

Too much "who's right" instead of 'what's right". Any PBS is simply a marginally interactive system for turning pairings into lines. Those on either side who are getting wrapped around the axle over any of it, well, good luck with that. So many bigger fish to fry. Yes, the jetlinkers are in all likelyhood headed down the primrose path trying to re-invent the wheel. And yes the candlers are not be giving this new wheel the benefit of the doubt. But a couple of years from now, no one will give a flying $&#@. Either system will be turning pairings into lines. The quality of the pairings and the other 99% of the contract (you know, the stuff that is actually worth getting worked up over) will be the major factors determining our QOL. Flightline vs Smartpref is worth debating, it does have some consequences, but how about a little perspective. While everyone is arguing over who gets to call the plays, the game is being lost.

Page after page, Mine is bigger than yours. Pull it out and prove it. Stop saying it's better. Say WHY it is better.

Would the ASA guys even want a joint contract and SLI? Isn't united a scope like deltas, as in Expressjet is gonna lose half their fleet like Pinnacle?

Honest question.....

The way UAL scope reads and the current XJT CPA, XJT has replacment rights to a certain amount of the larger RJs. If the full terms of the UAL scope are exercised, it would be a loss of approx 40 aircraft within 5 years on the L-XJT side. This is if they parked all the 50 seaters they possibily could and we saw no growth anywhere else. As i understand it, management is currently trying to figure out how to stay in the Delta Connection business long term now that PNCLs rates are so cheap. Both sides arent exactly in a rosey situation.

I honestly dont know how many more examples I could possibily post on here across various threads.

Prime example of "someone on the interweb who claims they have inside track info".

CPAs ("Capacity Purchase Agreements") are agreements between managements. You have no idea what's in them, or how often they are modified. You are claiming something you "heard" and can never prove. Fact is, you have no idea how your CPA was modified when it became a deal between SkyWest and UAL. I'm so tired of your side trying to throw your CPA in our faces and claim you have the upper hand. It's almost becoming laughable.

The bottom line is that because your side has come up with every reason under the sun to drag out and torpedo this JCBA, your side is now being drug to an arbitrator to have an "industry standard" CRJ-900 rate imposed. And of course, it will be whipsawed against our side. You only have yourselves to blame, so quit trying to spin anything into a rosy picture, and quit trying to tell us how YOUR ACQUIRED AIRLINE has the upper hand in anything.

Whoa there space troll cowboy. Didn't Skywest acquire Asa in the same manner? Pretty sure Asa didn't buy expressjet, some Mormons did.

Semantics. Actually, SkyWest Inc (the parent company) gave its subsidiary, Atlantic Southeast the money to purchase ExpressJet, who purchased it, made it a wholly owned subsidiary of Atlantic Southeast, and then later merged it with Atlantic Southeast. So regardless of where the money actually changed hands, your nearly bankrupt company was acquired. Get over it. No word smithing will change that. You have no upper hand. And I doubt religion has anything to do with it at all.

Lol man you must real be regreting staying here now, eh Tony? You can spin this any way you want, im not going to continue to debate with you on here. You really do live up to your reputation. As for the CPA, I can only go by information provided in earnings calls, alpa, the cpo, ect. Im sure you feel the same way I do...I hope im long gone before we see how true any of it is. Thanks for your usual productive contribution to this thread tho!

Insults and innuendo. That's all you got. :cool:

Lol im fresh out man. Just want this stupid thing done so we dont have to hear about it every day. From talking to you guys in person most are very nice and feel the same way I do. We dont want to be whipsawed but also dont want to go from 18 days off to 12 working weekends. Everyone is just trying to protect their QOL on both sides, I get it. Looks like you guys want to meet again next week so heres to hoping its productive!

That's not hard data for anybody, except secondary bids. Where's the primary bid? The primary bid is what really matters, not the secondary. And we need to see it next to any other options before it is meaningful. Have you ever had that experience where you buy something, like a computer, at the store, and the salesman pushes a couple of buttons, resulting in some kind of amazing display of capability? Then you get home and all you can do is power it up and watch a blank screen. That is what Smart Pref currently is for us. Again, I am not for or against any system, but I want to see results, not a sales pitch. We know how Flightline works, since we have already gone through the painful process of researching it, implementing it, and debugging it. Nobody really knows how, or if, SmartPref will really perform for primary bidding. What do we say if we implement SmartPref, we find that it doesn't work the way we expected, and it actually ends up worse for everybody? Who is willing to take that chance?

Well, if you came from our phase 2 bidding, more than likely, you would like smartpref. And it is that your MEC is unwilling to look at another option. They turned down third party neutral arbitration.

They wanted to change smartpref into flight line. When they wanted it to have multiple bid sheets or when thats not the way it works, and it was explained to them, they insisted anyway because it didn't do it the flight line way. They were unwilling to sit down and give an honest objective look at smartpref. THAT'S why your MEC go that letter. The crewing solutions guy felt like his time was wasted. And no doors were closed, unless your MEC can't get over their own egos. Trust me, if by some miracle your MEC wanted to use smartpref, do you honestly think that crewing solutions will say no?

Very good point! And its exactly what management asked your guys at the negotiation table. Do you want to hold up the entire merger over a pbs vendor, not work rules? The answer was yes.

The CAL CPA has given us replacement rights for 75 aircraft and an additional 15 aircraft growth. CAL can park the 50 seaters as their leases come due. The first lease comes due sometime this year and the last one comes due in 2021.

Actually, I have a redacted copy of all the CPAs, including the latest one that Skywest Inc signed when they bought XJT. It has everything other than monetary figures.

As for dragging this out, if asking not to take concessions is dragging it out, then I'm all for indefinite negotiations. Bu this is not the case here. Your own MEC has stated three things: scope, rates, and pbs. Well, you can't really go onto rates unless you have pbs so their ultimatum did stop negotiations in its tracks. As for imposed rates, thank your MEC's ultimatum for that. Management would not have played that card if your MEC hadn't stomped their feet. Blame your MEC for that!

You forget to mention the timing of Skywest's acquisition. ASA was going to reimbursed the 2nd lowest rate in DCI. That's why Skywest Inc bought us when they did. We were losing money because of the Skywest whipsaw from 2008 but they had to buy us when they did rather than to wait and see if we went bankrupt OR bought by someone else, to save you guys from also entering a money losing CPA with DAL. Now they can save money on both sides by merging us, pocketing synergy savings, spread cost over more aircraft, economies of scale, leverage our size with third party vendors, etc.

You make it sound like St George did any of this over benevolence for XJT and that they just wanted to save our bankrupt airline.

That may be the way you look at it but that's not the question at hand at the negotiating table. Which is probably why your MEC is having such a hard time of it. Its just not the reality of the situation.

What a sad circle jerk.

It's not flightline that is going to cause you to go from 18 days off to 12 days off....The new rest rules will take care of that....