I am just curious why Mainline unions do not push management for one list when they buy a regional? This might stop the process of destroying regionals so they can build them back up. I understand Delta management would not want us merged but I would think the Pilot group would not have a problem as long as we were stapled with a short term fence. Is it because most mainline pilots feel like regional pilots are below them? Or is it because they do not want to spend negotiating capital to get management to merge? I only see advantages to one list from a pilot perspective as long as the regional pilots are stapled. By the way I am not really trying to start a flame war, just looking for some thoughts on why no major has said we have to merge any company management buys instead it is only any major airline they buy.

Your post makes sense, is the way things once were and the way things should be. In large part the union accepted outsourcing as a way to fix B Scale by moving it off the property. Current union leadership reasoning for fighting unity:

• The pilots of that airline do not meet our standards.
• The type of flying performed by that airline does not appeal to us and would disuade others from working here.
• Management decides who merges. Labor has no voice / is ineffective / would pay too high a price for mergers.
• Outsourcing results in mainline pilots getting paid more. Outsourcing is good.
• Flow through agreements are as good.

... and don't expect much sympathy from Wychor. If I am not mistaken he voted against ASA and Comair when they tried to gain ALPA support for a merge with Delta.

Never mind.

Thanks for your input Bar. I was afraid to type it because I figured it would become a huge flame war.

So what do you think happens with pinnacle? What does the end game look like?

[*]The pilots of that airline do not meet our standards.
We don't (as least those who have been here more than two years). We are all uneducated, checkride- bustin', drunks who are so bad many mainline guys won't allow us to carry their families.

[*]The type of flying performed by that airline does not appeal to us and would disuade others from working here.
Absolutely! Who in their right mind wants to fly more than two legs per week? Not to mention, only widebodies have overhead bins large enough to hold a "real" pilot's hat.

[*]Outsourcing results in mainline pilots getting paid more. Outsourcing is good.
Also true. Just don't let any of those peeons take our jobs.

While I agree it should all be one, I don't agree with only one group benefitting from it. Most DCI carriers bust their hump to keep Delta going. Delta owns most DCI airplanes, bring them and the pilots in house. Wishful thinking I know but it would be nice for everyone at DCI to get a piece of the action. O well, keep on truckin everyone.

Because statistically speaking, a good 50% of regional pilots wouldn't pass a Delta interview (be it HR, tech, psych portion). Ask yourself, why would DALPA sign off on taking all the pilots on a regional list, without vetting them first.

Also, because 9E doesn't have any hiring standards. A pulse and a willingness to show up to class is all that is needed. In some cases, an interview wasn't even necessary, certain colleges had programs where the graduates got class dates without interviews. Delta would like to have a little higher of a standard than that. I'm against flows because it doesn't give an airline a chance to vet through the bad personalities, the guys who make this job harder than it has to be and are just plain annoying to fly with. Ask yourself, you know who these guys are, would you really want them at Delta.

Did Delta test the Pan Am Express pilots? How about Northwest pilots?

Did Tigers vet those small jet flying Fed Ex pilots?

Unity before bigotry. Those Pinnacle pilots are already flying Delta pax.

I think the stats were less than about 4 percent of applicants made it through the process from application (over 12, 500 to the number off probation in the last ten years) if you back out internal hires and transfers. That meant precisely nothing in the mergers Delta has done...

I edited my post above to add more information before you typed this. See post above. Pan Am/NWA/Tigers are an entirely different situation.

Bar..I would be somewhat worried if I was a DL pilot. Your MGT has had some surprises up their sleeve. They seem to be cutting edge in their decisions. I would hate to see them make these same bottom line decisions about their own pilot group. They are definitely thinking outside the box...is the DL pilot group as well?

Also, because 9E doesn't have any hiring standards. A pulse and a willingness to show up to class is all that is needed. In some cases, an interview wasn't even necessary, certain colleges had programs where the graduates got class dates without interviews. Delta would like to have a little higher of a standard than that. I'm against flows because it doesn't give an airline a chance to vet through the bad personalities, the guys who make this job harder than it has to be and are just plain annoying to fly with. Ask yourself, you know who these guys are, would you really want them at Delta.

I don't recall any interview or vetting of the Northwest pilots (who weren't even flying Delta passengers)
Perhaps Delta should do ALL the hiring, including all the regionals, problem solved. Good enough to be hired at DCI good enough for Delta then.

Yea, guys like you. What, did Pinnacle make some exception for you? You were hired under the same criteria. Just because you have moved on don't put yourself on some pedestal. And if I were you, I'd stop stepping on guys toes and making such a broad stroke of the brush for an entire pilot group. This is a small industry.

Northwest wasn't a regional with no hiring standards.

It's not a broad brush, it's true. The regionals have a very low hiring standard compared to majors. You can look at the acceptance level of intervieews at majors versus regional. You can look at the percentage chance of being called at a major versus a regional. It's a night and day difference. The interview process is also different. I never said anything bad about the good guys. My point oaths legacies should be able to weed out the bad flying personalities.

Good Post....Very small industry!!!!

I understand there is the concern that some pinnacle pilots are not qualified to be Delta pilots my argument is that they fly Delta Passengers so they should be just as qualified and safe as their delta counter parts. If we have Pilots that are not qualified they should be weeded out in training instead of just check the box and move along. If we were to be merged raise our level of training to match Delta's and if you can not be brought up to their standards then there is the door, you shouldn't be flying their passengers if you can not meet their standards.

If we took all outsourced flying back, I'd sign off on this without batting an eye.

On the other hand, consider that 8 years ago Delta owned 80% of their feed (ASA and Comair) and decided they wanted nothing to do with it.

You do remember that over 1500 pilots at the current 9E were never hired by Pinnacle, right?

Do I need to watch "Harry Potter" for this to make sense?

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Mysteri...nd%20Ducks.jpg

When did this become the Animal Planet channel?

Go away ShyGuy, spend some more time with your family instead of commenting on Pinnacle threads. Your posts add nothing constructive or thought provoking to the discussion.

Wait that wasn't pinnacle that made me do holds (intercept two vor radials ) in a beech 1900 sim for my interview? Gawsh I'm just a dump turbo prop pilot how will I ever pass crj training?!?!?

I disagree, I think he needs to post more in Pinnacle threads. Its awesome.

Is this his soul source of human interaction?

The secret is to pretend all the TV screens have failed and just fly the back up instruments. It may not be a full six pack, but at least you'll feel comfortable.

No, but his wife enjoys his forum time.

Shyguy would hate if Pinnacle was added to Delta seniority list. This would make his move to VA seem a litte less special.

:eek: :D That is funny right there, I don't care who you are that's funny!

uhhhh aahhhhh .......golf clap, golf clap...

All too well! Though I heard good things about XJ in terms of their operation and training, and I assume it showed through in their hiring standards. I'll say it as a ex-9E guy, I think XJ was on a higher echelon than 9E. Colgan on the other hand was a complete train wreck, owned by some of the worst management ever. Just watch "Flying Cheap" and you'll get the idea.

I dunno, good luck! I've heard some horror stories of XJ and 9L guys not passing 9E training over small stuff. Hopefully those days are over now that XJ will start running things.

"I got nothing to say in an argumentative/constructive manner, so I'll just attack his personal family."

Well played :rolleyes:

I really don't envision that happening and to be honest, I don't think DALPA would go for it. They were very quick to make sure the XJ and CP flows ended. And if the in the rarest of rarest cases 9E does get its list merged into Delta, then so be it, more power to ya. Who knows when and even if that will happen. In the mean time, I cannot afford to live in self-voted poverty so I won't regret my move. Nothing stops anyone from applying in the future off the street to United, Delta, or American.

Put it in context: it was a joke. I meant it to be funny. Some folks got it. Apparently, you did not. I'm sorry if I offended, but your obsession with PinnaColAbba is rather ridiculous.

My buddies and I all kid each other about banging each others Mums. It's a JOKE. It isn't like I am teasing somebody about their mentally ill kid. (For the PC crowd, my last comment was meant to show even I have limits... and I have a brother that is schizophrenic)

Side note RE: PinnaColAbba

I still like that name. It gives homage to all three pilot groups and shows us merging into one. G#d knows we need to be unified if we are to have any hope of surviving.

I know, it was suppose to be a joke-response back. Believe me I'm not offended easy on forums, despite how heated it may seem.

Consideration needs to be given to who's management team was running Delta at that time. Back then Delta was running "Delta" now Northwest is running "Delta". Then plan for Comair had been laid out prior to Northwest running things at Delta.

It is possible the economics are changing?

Richard Anderson definitely does not call McKinsey and Co. to get ideas on how to run an airline. He is a vertical integration, process driven, results guy and to my amazement, he and his team have executed.

I am not sure I understand the benefit of a captive "farm team" regional airline. You and I have never seen "free agency" benefit the player in the aviation industry. Could management be that fearful of a pilot shortage? I doubt it.

Black helicopter stuff .... (don't read if you don't like spy novels)

The Delta MEC, traditionally, has fought unity at the regional level.

Notice that in the Pinnacle deal ALPA specifically and intentionally excluded the Delta MEC and thanks to the incredible power President Moak enjoys, Moak and Wychor did it without a peep of complaint.

Moak tends to do things in such a way that they are done before the membership even gets a whiff of what happened. Could Moak be engineering restoration of job protection provisions? Who knows?

Doing so would go against the action he took with Compass as MEC Chairman, but economics do change and so does airline management.

Perhaps there is a good reason the Delta pilots are locked out of whatever is getting cooked up back there.

[QUOTE=Pogey Bait;1398503]Consideration needs to be given to who's management team was running Delta at that time. Back then Delta was running "Delta" now Northwest is running "Delta". Then plan for Comair had been laid out prior to Northwest running things at Delta.[/QUOTE

huh? what managers would that be? our top brass has not changed, who are you referring to?