Fair wage scale for regionals?
12-12-2013 | 12:58 PM
#111
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: FO - 757/767
Well, I work abroad, and I can tell you the type of questions at an upgrade interview at a large international bizjet operator... I think they'll surprise you:
1) You're flying a NAT track and you're approaching 30W. Suddenly you see low oil pressure on your #2 engine. Take me through the scenario, your actions, walk me through the checklists, and tell me how would you handle this. (We take MNPS recurrent every year... should be a no-brainer).
2) You're flying over Russia, and you have a problem requiring a divert. What are some of your considerations? (We fly there often as well... think along the lines of non-WGS-84 compliance and meters QFE, etc... stuff that's covered in recurrent).
3) You have a FO who insists he fly the first sector to a special airport. How do you handle that?
4) A junior FA has a disagreement with the purser that she feels she cannot resolve and asks you to intervene. How do you handle this situation?
5) You have a 40 minute flight and you're tankering fuel for a round trip (you're given a figure and flight plans). You have a VIP onboard enroute to a major world event. On departure, your landing gear won't retract. Take me through this scenario. Explain your decisions.
Basically, you're graded on your decision-making, application of CRM, and knowledge of the manuals you operate under.
Some people just can't make a tough decision if it's not laid out in black and white. Nobody is forcing you to brown nose, or play golf with CP, or anything of the sort.
Our last FO that upgraded was about as far from brown-noser as you can get. He just knew his stuff, showed up prepared, had a pleasant demeanor. Now he's a captain.
Good ol boy clubs, particularly at larger airlines, are actually highly impractical due to sheer size.
But what do I know... after all aren't we all ENTITLED to that left seat?
1) You're flying a NAT track and you're approaching 30W. Suddenly you see low oil pressure on your #2 engine. Take me through the scenario, your actions, walk me through the checklists, and tell me how would you handle this. (We take MNPS recurrent every year... should be a no-brainer).
2) You're flying over Russia, and you have a problem requiring a divert. What are some of your considerations? (We fly there often as well... think along the lines of non-WGS-84 compliance and meters QFE, etc... stuff that's covered in recurrent).
3) You have a FO who insists he fly the first sector to a special airport. How do you handle that?
4) A junior FA has a disagreement with the purser that she feels she cannot resolve and asks you to intervene. How do you handle this situation?
5) You have a 40 minute flight and you're tankering fuel for a round trip (you're given a figure and flight plans). You have a VIP onboard enroute to a major world event. On departure, your landing gear won't retract. Take me through this scenario. Explain your decisions.
Basically, you're graded on your decision-making, application of CRM, and knowledge of the manuals you operate under.
Some people just can't make a tough decision if it's not laid out in black and white. Nobody is forcing you to brown nose, or play golf with CP, or anything of the sort.
Our last FO that upgraded was about as far from brown-noser as you can get. He just knew his stuff, showed up prepared, had a pleasant demeanor. Now he's a captain.
Good ol boy clubs, particularly at larger airlines, are actually highly impractical due to sheer size.
But what do I know... after all aren't we all ENTITLED to that left seat?
12-12-2013 | 01:11 PM
#112
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Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Lunar Lander Commander
What would that be? I know we all want to make 100k our first year but that's not realistic. So what is? I'm asking about a minimum scale for the 37-50 seat planes and for it to go up from there. Yes I know if we made more the regionals would all shut down or fares would go up but let's just say we lived in a Capitalist country where supply and demand ruled the economy and our hands weren't tied to an old RLA law of the 1700s. Personally I like the Jazz pay scale. Same job so why should the pay scale be based on seats?
So the wage is set because 2 parties agreed upon it. You and your employer.
Inflation is a whole different animal and it is the majority of the reason we ***** about these kinds of things. Although most never realize it as the purchasing power of your dollars declines it begins to feel like your not making enough money for the job you do. But it really is not your employers fault at all.
$22.00 an hour to fly an airplane? All day long....
and with a smile on my face if it was still 1962!!
Then I always get those blank stares when I start talking about monetary policy.
12-12-2013 | 01:56 PM
#113
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Joined: Jul 2013
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From: NBCNEWB
So by that math, and even if it's off a bit, it's probably in the ballpark…
1067, you took just as low paying a job at the time as the guys are now. Yet you spew this stuff:
The career is in its current shape due to many facets; there's culpability on both sides, old/senior and young/junior guys alike. You got yours, and sounds like you're in a good place now, very good on you…but apparently the ladder wasn't too heavy for you to pull it up.
12-12-2013 | 02:48 PM
#114
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Joined: Jul 2010
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From: 7er
So by that math, and even if it's off a bit, it's probably in the ballpark…
1067, you took just as low paying a job at the time as the guys are now. Yet you spew this stuff:
I'm not saying I'm not a part of the problem, I know what I'm signing up for and going into. Doesn't mean I can't wish things were better. Thousands of other people have been in the same boat. Some have made out well, some have got caught out due to bad timing, and there's tremendous frustration there.
The career is in its current shape due to many facets; there's culpability on both sides, old/senior and young/junior guys alike. You got yours, and sounds like you're in a good place now, very good on you…but apparently the ladder wasn't too heavy for you to pull it up.
1067, you took just as low paying a job at the time as the guys are now. Yet you spew this stuff:
I'm not saying I'm not a part of the problem, I know what I'm signing up for and going into. Doesn't mean I can't wish things were better. Thousands of other people have been in the same boat. Some have made out well, some have got caught out due to bad timing, and there's tremendous frustration there.
The career is in its current shape due to many facets; there's culpability on both sides, old/senior and young/junior guys alike. You got yours, and sounds like you're in a good place now, very good on you…but apparently the ladder wasn't too heavy for you to pull it up.
12-12-2013 | 03:02 PM
#115
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From: NBCNEWB
Fair enough.
It just came across to me as "y'all stop complaining, I don't wanna hear it; you know what you're getting into." Certainly fair but is somewhat disingenuous when guys who got theirs put ALL the blame on the younger crowd via the "if you don't want the low pay, don't take the job, don't complain" argument, when they did the same thing early in their careers. That's the ladder I speak of.
The last decade+ has certainly been frustrating for a lot of regional and to a lesser extent, major guys...I'm not condoning the b**ching and moaning, but it's understandable. Agreed the outlook now looks good, *fingers crossed*. Hopefully prosperity ensues for us all.
It just came across to me as "y'all stop complaining, I don't wanna hear it; you know what you're getting into." Certainly fair but is somewhat disingenuous when guys who got theirs put ALL the blame on the younger crowd via the "if you don't want the low pay, don't take the job, don't complain" argument, when they did the same thing early in their careers. That's the ladder I speak of.
The last decade+ has certainly been frustrating for a lot of regional and to a lesser extent, major guys...I'm not condoning the b**ching and moaning, but it's understandable. Agreed the outlook now looks good, *fingers crossed*. Hopefully prosperity ensues for us all.
12-13-2013 | 12:00 PM
#116
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Joined: Jul 2007
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From: B737CA
As for getting "things interpreted differently", a good friend of mine who's a B-777 captain at Emirates had a disagreement with one of the board members during the upgrade interview. He outlined his thought process, a board member disagreed with the course of action, but didn't outright dismiss it as being too far in the left field, and my buddy passed. Simply know your FOM, know your procedures, be capable of critical thinking, have a clue about good airmanship, and be open to keep learning.
12-13-2013 | 12:57 PM
#117
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Joined: Dec 2005
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RJSaviator, At my company with a seniority system, all upgrading captains get a interview/oral. The difference is one doesn't get to take the interview until your seniority number comes up.
A seniority system does not guarantee the "best" pilots available are in both seats, it guarantees qualified pilots are flying and that those pilots willing to risk safety in order to advance ahead of others are not advanced early.
A seniority system does not guarantee the "best" pilots available are in both seats, it guarantees qualified pilots are flying and that those pilots willing to risk safety in order to advance ahead of others are not advanced early.
12-13-2013 | 01:12 PM
#118
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Joined: Feb 2013
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The only reason that First Officers are paid so low is because Senior Captains want it that way. There is a single pool of money that the company is willing to give to the entire pilot population. The union and its membership decide how to divvy it up.
I would think that most companies, in the absence of a union, would want a flatter pay scale where FO's make more and Captain make less.
Smaller regional airlines such as Silver and Great Lakes are going to have to do something, and fast or they will be out of business in a year. There is simply not going to be any pilots to sit in the right seat.
I would think that most companies, in the absence of a union, would want a flatter pay scale where FO's make more and Captain make less.
Smaller regional airlines such as Silver and Great Lakes are going to have to do something, and fast or they will be out of business in a year. There is simply not going to be any pilots to sit in the right seat.
12-13-2013 | 02:50 PM
#120
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I think that Airbum's system, rather his company's system, is probably closer to the best of both worlds. There would be an interview process, but when you take said interview is determined by seniority.
The fear that this would lead to the return of the Good Ole Boy club is a bit unfounded, since the club never left. If the good ole boy club did not exist, then the need to network and have internal recs would not exist.
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