FAR 117 Effect
08-27-2013, 08:43 PM
#41
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
Originally Posted by embraer
You guys are over thinking this.
Commuting has nothing to do with rest time. You are still "off" until you sign in.
To put it another way: these rest rules apply when you are signed in for a sequence and receiving per diem.
When signing in on day one you still have to look back 10 hours and find no duty time. Those are your days off. What you do on your days off is your business and does not interfere with 117 rest rules.
Regardless if you spent your days off golfing, commuting, sleeping, or watching porn you were still at "rest". Once you sign in its a different story.
Commuting has nothing to do with rest time. You are still "off" until you sign in.
To put it another way: these rest rules apply when you are signed in for a sequence and receiving per diem.
When signing in on day one you still have to look back 10 hours and find no duty time. Those are your days off. What you do on your days off is your business and does not interfere with 117 rest rules.
Regardless if you spent your days off golfing, commuting, sleeping, or watching porn you were still at "rest". Once you sign in its a different story.
That's my take as well. The point of this is prevent the company from putting you into a fatigue-inducing situation while under their control, ie on an overnight.
As long as you have the required duty-free period prior to starting a trip, it will be assumed that you had "sleep opportunity". It does not require you to sleep, not does it require you to spend eight hours in a a "suitable facility" on your days off.
The existing regs requiring you to be non-fatigued when you come to work still apply. The FAA is not attempting to regulate how you accomplish that, and they are unlikely to ever do so. A reg requiring pilots to be in domicile ten hours prior to show would most likely create that pilot shortage everyone's been talking about, with dire economic consequences. Nobody wants that, not airlines, not ALPA, not pilots, and not the FAA.
There is also no legal precedence that I've ever heard of to regulate an employee's off duty activities to this degree. What if the baby starts crying? You'd be legally obligated to call off the trip.
08-27-2013, 08:47 PM
#42
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
Originally Posted by KSCessnaDriver
Surely you can't be serious. Or perhaps you really do believe a non-spiritual person can't be a pilot in your eyes. Either way, this post is way off base
Get your sarcasm detector checked out at your earliest convenience.
08-27-2013, 11:43 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
Originally Posted by Sniper
ALPA has already interpreted it. ALPA published a 'FAR 117 FT/DT Guide' in May 2013.
From ALPA's 'FAR 117 FT/DT Guide':
Q-65. How is the required rest period measured?
A-65. The rest period is measured from release from duty
until the flightcrew member reports for a FDP or reserve
assignment.
Q-67. Who determines if a flightcrew member has received an 8
consecutive-hour sleep opportunity?
A-67. Only the flightcrew member can make this determination
because of the many variables involved.
That would not be necessary to comply with FAR 117.
If the company choses to put "must be in domicile 10-12 hrs prior to FDP start" in the manual, then you are not "free from all restraint" (FAR § 117.3 Definition of "Rest Period") if the company is requiring you to be in domicile.
You are also entitled to anything else you would get if you were on a company trip and not 'on duty': per diem, single occupancy hotel rooms, etc. Furthermore, you couldn't be required to do this during a scheduled day off either. Some companies do this already, like ACMI operations. Most companies are too cheap to operate this way - that is their incentive to keep it out of the company manuals.
From ALPA's 'FAR 117 FT/DT Guide':
Q-65. How is the required rest period measured?
A-65. The rest period is measured from release from duty
until the flightcrew member reports for a FDP or reserve
assignment.
Q-67. Who determines if a flightcrew member has received an 8
consecutive-hour sleep opportunity?
A-67. Only the flightcrew member can make this determination
because of the many variables involved.
That would not be necessary to comply with FAR 117.
If the company choses to put "must be in domicile 10-12 hrs prior to FDP start" in the manual, then you are not "free from all restraint" (FAR § 117.3 Definition of "Rest Period") if the company is requiring you to be in domicile.
You are also entitled to anything else you would get if you were on a company trip and not 'on duty': per diem, single occupancy hotel rooms, etc. Furthermore, you couldn't be required to do this during a scheduled day off either. Some companies do this already, like ACMI operations. Most companies are too cheap to operate this way - that is their incentive to keep it out of the company manuals.
08-28-2013, 03:48 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,951
I love online arguments. This thing has been settled two or three times already, then someone comes up and rephrases an incorrect argument that's already been refuted and off we go again!
FAR 117 does not apply to commuting. It only applies from the time you sign in to the time you sign out for a trip. Period. End of story.
FAR 117 does not apply to commuting. It only applies from the time you sign in to the time you sign out for a trip. Period. End of story.
08-28-2013, 07:04 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,082
Originally Posted by RgrMurdock
This does not effect commuting or anything you do on your time off. The FAA purposely put language in there so that commuting will not be effected. Rest opportunity is just that - an opportunity. The catch all that covers commuting is that now each crew member must sign off (dispatch release or ACARS or something) that they are well rested and fit for duty at the start of their FDP. The FAA can then wash their hands of it.
And there is nothing stopping you (in fact I believe it now is required) from reevaluating your fatigue level before each leg. If you show up good to go and 4 legs without an APU, weather, maintenance, ect. you are cashed before that 5th leg to the overnight, you still can/must pull yourself for being too fatigued to do that leg, just like you should now.
08-28-2013, 08:26 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
ALPA also interpreted that the continental USA is all one geographic area and we're always acclimated, and that SFO based pilots could use SFO time when reporting out of JFK. That turned out not to be the case.
§ 117.3 Definitions.
Acclimated means a condition in which a flightcrew member has
been in a theater for 72 hours or has been given at least 36 consecutive
hours free from duty.
Theater means a geographical area where local time at the
flightcrew member’s flight duty period departure point and arrival point
differ by more than 60 degrees longitude.
Acclimated means a condition in which a flightcrew member has
been in a theater for 72 hours or has been given at least 36 consecutive
hours free from duty.
Theater means a geographical area where local time at the
flightcrew member’s flight duty period departure point and arrival point
differ by more than 60 degrees longitude.
JFK's longitude is 73° 46' 56" W
A difference of less than 60° longitude.
ALPA's interpretation:
Q-01. I only fly in the continental 48 states. Am I always acclimated?
A-01. Yes. The area between the East and West Coasts of the
United States does not exceed 60° longitude.
Q-02. I fly SFO-JFK which has a 3-hour time difference. I am then given a
10-hour rest period before reporting for duty at JFK. Do I use local
time (JFK) or home base time (SFO) to determine my Flight Duty
Period (FDP) start time?
A-02. You would calculate your FDP start time based on local
time (JFK).
Q-03. In the scenario in question 2 above, is there ever a circumstance
where home base time could be used?
A-03. Yes. The certificate holder can designate home base time
(SFO) to determine FDP start time in the same theater.
However, once this designation is made, it will apply for the
entire FDP series.
A-01. Yes. The area between the East and West Coasts of the
United States does not exceed 60° longitude.
Q-02. I fly SFO-JFK which has a 3-hour time difference. I am then given a
10-hour rest period before reporting for duty at JFK. Do I use local
time (JFK) or home base time (SFO) to determine my Flight Duty
Period (FDP) start time?
A-02. You would calculate your FDP start time based on local
time (JFK).
Q-03. In the scenario in question 2 above, is there ever a circumstance
where home base time could be used?
A-03. Yes. The certificate holder can designate home base time
(SFO) to determine FDP start time in the same theater.
However, once this designation is made, it will apply for the
entire FDP series.
What 'case' does Virgin America management, or you, see that a pilot in JFK is not acclimated to the same theater as a pilot in SFO, or that a company cannot apply a specific time zone to an entire trip that remains in one 'theater'? Please cite your reference.
ALPA had multiple reps on the FT/DT rule making committee (they helped make this rule), and has an established record as an authority on this subject (the reason ALPA was founded was due to fatigue, hence the ALPA motto, 'Schedule with Safety'). If you have information that contradicts such an authority, I'm interested to hear it.
Last edited by Sniper; 08-28-2013 at 08:48 AM. Reason: added ALPA's interpretation for reference
09-01-2013, 04:25 AM
#48
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: Dispatcher / Meteorolgist
Posts: 49
Gentlemen,
With regards to commuting I suggest that you review the following circular:
http://far117understanding.files.wor...1/ac-117-3.pdf
Look for the section "Commuting Stresses" and make your decisions as to how you should behave.
With regards to The FAA's acclimatization process, this seems particularly flawed.
The FAA uses a series of FDPs, not series of Duty Periods.
So a Flightcrew Member (FCM) could be on a RAP 9 hours, assigned a DHD Duty period for 10 hrs to a different theater, be given 10 hours rest and will be considered acclimated since the FCM did not actually change theaters during a FDP, so no 30 minute penalty will be applied to the FDP. So, in the case provided, the FCM will be dead tired, and actually un-accclimated, yet they will be expected to be able to perform a FDP up to the scheduled FDP limit and then extended possibly as much as 2 hours. Hmm ... yeah, right that's safe.
With regards to commuting I suggest that you review the following circular:
http://far117understanding.files.wor...1/ac-117-3.pdf
Look for the section "Commuting Stresses" and make your decisions as to how you should behave.
With regards to The FAA's acclimatization process, this seems particularly flawed.
The FAA uses a series of FDPs, not series of Duty Periods.
So a Flightcrew Member (FCM) could be on a RAP 9 hours, assigned a DHD Duty period for 10 hrs to a different theater, be given 10 hours rest and will be considered acclimated since the FCM did not actually change theaters during a FDP, so no 30 minute penalty will be applied to the FDP. So, in the case provided, the FCM will be dead tired, and actually un-accclimated, yet they will be expected to be able to perform a FDP up to the scheduled FDP limit and then extended possibly as much as 2 hours. Hmm ... yeah, right that's safe.
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