2013 - Income and Info
10-25-2013 | 10:53 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 325
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From: Left
If every regional pilot walked off there job, even for one day, I guarantee they would get a pay raise. And honestly what could the Government do. It's not like they play by the rules so why should you.
10-28-2013 | 08:09 AM
#22
Gets Weekdays Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
From: Economy Minus
Who said pilots would make twice as much without the RLA? That's your own straw-man argument.
If there's no shortage of pilots willing to work at first year pay, why is it that RAH and Eagle are offering $5,000 signing bonuses, while Silver is offering $6,000? My regional is having a hard time getting people who are scheduled to interview to actually show up. I wouldn't call it a shortage, but it sure is a "buyer's market."
Comair walked over a decade ago. Which other regional airline has been allowed to strike since then? I'm not saying that without the NMB and RLA then we'd all make twice as much money, that's just silly. What I am saying is that in that sort of environment, management would actually have to come to the negotiating table ready to play ball, or risk having their workforce walk out. The focus would be on getting a deal done. The current NMB environment does nothing but reward management groups for their ability to draw things out indefinitely. This is nothing like a free market system like you called it.
This whole discussion started when you mentioned that new pilots are an "unproven commodity." I contested that when you run someone through the level of indoctrination that PPL-ATP training provides, as well as the standardization of a part-121 training event, you know exactly what you're getting. And then there's "probation," the period of time when if you're not getting the job done, you're gone without union help. Will all of these safe-guards in place, there's no need for low pay just in the name of "unproven commodities." Fire me if I'm incompetent. But until then, pay me according to my level of education, training, risk factor, and responsibility.
If there's no shortage of pilots willing to work at first year pay, why is it that RAH and Eagle are offering $5,000 signing bonuses, while Silver is offering $6,000? My regional is having a hard time getting people who are scheduled to interview to actually show up. I wouldn't call it a shortage, but it sure is a "buyer's market."
Comair walked over a decade ago. Which other regional airline has been allowed to strike since then? I'm not saying that without the NMB and RLA then we'd all make twice as much money, that's just silly. What I am saying is that in that sort of environment, management would actually have to come to the negotiating table ready to play ball, or risk having their workforce walk out. The focus would be on getting a deal done. The current NMB environment does nothing but reward management groups for their ability to draw things out indefinitely. This is nothing like a free market system like you called it.
This whole discussion started when you mentioned that new pilots are an "unproven commodity." I contested that when you run someone through the level of indoctrination that PPL-ATP training provides, as well as the standardization of a part-121 training event, you know exactly what you're getting. And then there's "probation," the period of time when if you're not getting the job done, you're gone without union help. Will all of these safe-guards in place, there's no need for low pay just in the name of "unproven commodities." Fire me if I'm incompetent. But until then, pay me according to my level of education, training, risk factor, and responsibility.
I just take exception to the fact that (while not explicitly stated) the inference seems to be that government interference (in the form of the RLA) is keeping salaries artificially low. I don't think that is true, as carriers do strike (see Comair).
IMHO wages are low for new hires because lots of people are willing to do the job for less and because that is the way union contracts are negotiated (low wages for entry, higher for seniority).
I agree - with companies needing to offer bonuses for people to come to work, maybe the market will reset. But as long as Majors can use regionals interchangeably, and plug a cheaper (newer) one in in place of a more "experienced" one (more senior workforce) then the downward pressure on wages will come from this, and not the RLA. All making it easier to strike would do would be force the union to put up or shut up sooner (IMHO, again, I think a lot of this "if only we could strike, we would, but the RLA prevents it" is posturing) and walk - hastening the replacement of that flying with some other carrier who is "younger" or who is further from a contract negotiation year. Maybe creating more instability would create stability, who knows? It just seems less likely to me.
10-28-2013 | 10:28 AM
#23
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,367
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From: SIC
The industry has had problems from the time it started and Orville and Wilbur were fighting over who gets to fly first...
To add insult to injury, every commercial (now ATP-light) rated pilot is qualified to do the same job to the same level of work and you're not able to really take your "experience with you". As such, loyalty to the company is rewarded, but experience in the profession is not, additionally you have no grounds to negotiate your compensation in the 121 world which is why there are 10,000 hour pilots at the regionals waiting for the chance to get BACK to mainline.
I'll play however.
Flying a desk. 420% of poverty level, family of 3.
To add insult to injury, every commercial (now ATP-light) rated pilot is qualified to do the same job to the same level of work and you're not able to really take your "experience with you". As such, loyalty to the company is rewarded, but experience in the profession is not, additionally you have no grounds to negotiate your compensation in the 121 world which is why there are 10,000 hour pilots at the regionals waiting for the chance to get BACK to mainline.
I'll play however.
Flying a desk. 420% of poverty level, family of 3.
10-30-2013 | 04:43 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
The pay is just one of the many dyfunctionalties in this industry. If you are a regional airline pilot then you hate your life, plain and simple. You dont need these statistics to prove that. If the regionals gave everyone a $20/hr raise across the board, the # you would see on your W2 at the end of the year would still be a complete joke. Yet you go to an interview and you're getting grilled over a speeding ticket and how you called out sick at your previous job. So if you aren't a choir boy you suddenly aren't worthy of their twenty-three thousand dollar a year offer. Where do I sign up?
Seriously, how long do the airlines think this supply of pilots will last that will agree to do this crap? Looking forward to the impending implosion
Seriously, how long do the airlines think this supply of pilots will last that will agree to do this crap? Looking forward to the impending implosion
10-30-2013 | 04:49 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 0
The pay is just one of the many dyfunctionalties in this industry. If you are a regional airline pilot then you hate your life, plain and simple. You dont need these statistics to prove that. If the regionals gave everyone a $20/hr raise across the board, the # you would see on your W2 at the end of the year would still be a complete joke. Yet you go to an interview and you're getting grilled over a speeding ticket and how you called out sick at your previous job. So if you aren't a choir boy you suddenly aren't worthy of their twenty-three thousand dollar a year offer. Where do I sign up?
Seriously, how long do the airlines think this supply of pilots will last that will agree to do this crap? Looking forward to the impending implosion
Seriously, how long do the airlines think this supply of pilots will last that will agree to do this crap? Looking forward to the impending implosion
Nailed it!
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