FAR 117 rule isn't solving the real problem
12-23-2013, 03:42 PM
#11
Not A Janitor
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 814
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
I was that poor regional FO, once upon a time.
I spent 7 nights in September 2006 sleeping on a couch in a crewroom in PHL. I had a sleeping bag and pillow there for just that reason.
It was most certainly not ideal, but as a poor regional FO it was the best solution I had to balance my financial situation as a commuting probationary FO while ensuring I met my responsibility of starting a trip rested.
We all make decisions every day, and flying for a regional airline isn't slavery or even indentured servitude. Nobody is forcing somebody to take a redeye to save a few bucks, and let's be honest with ourselves, if pay went up $400/mo you and I both know a HUGE percentage of pilots would pocket that while continuing the actions they are already doing.
More pay doesn't make safer pilots.
I spent 7 nights in September 2006 sleeping on a couch in a crewroom in PHL. I had a sleeping bag and pillow there for just that reason.
It was most certainly not ideal, but as a poor regional FO it was the best solution I had to balance my financial situation as a commuting probationary FO while ensuring I met my responsibility of starting a trip rested.
We all make decisions every day, and flying for a regional airline isn't slavery or even indentured servitude. Nobody is forcing somebody to take a redeye to save a few bucks, and let's be honest with ourselves, if pay went up $400/mo you and I both know a HUGE percentage of pilots would pocket that while continuing the actions they are already doing.
More pay doesn't make safer pilots.
12-23-2013, 03:56 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 555
Originally Posted by Sum Ting Wong
They are not underpaid. No one is forcing anyone to work for low wages. If a person chooses to make $16,000 a year as a Regional pilot, that is his/her choice. He/she can make more money working full time as a grocery store cashier.
There is simply an abundance of people that want to fly for a living.
Writing, acting, photography, baseball, flying....too many people enter these fields and only those at the very top can earn a decent living. Somehow this message doesn’t get through. The pay scale is similar to baseball; the people at the top do very well, and those one step down (AAA league or the Regionals) earn something feeble, and the rest never earn a dime and have to find another career.
If its about safety we should "pass the hat" for police and firemen. Most pilots are pilots for a reason… it's a life long dream job.
A school bus driver holds the future of 25-50 young children each with the potential to become President. Are we going to pay him/her 100,000$ a year?
There is simply an abundance of people that want to fly for a living.
Writing, acting, photography, baseball, flying....too many people enter these fields and only those at the very top can earn a decent living. Somehow this message doesn’t get through. The pay scale is similar to baseball; the people at the top do very well, and those one step down (AAA league or the Regionals) earn something feeble, and the rest never earn a dime and have to find another career.
If its about safety we should "pass the hat" for police and firemen. Most pilots are pilots for a reason… it's a life long dream job.
A school bus driver holds the future of 25-50 young children each with the potential to become President. Are we going to pay him/her 100,000$ a year?
12-23-2013, 03:56 PM
#14
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,548
Originally Posted by atrdriver
I've had better sleep in a 737 jumpseat than in a crewroom. You're delusional and flat out incorrect.
I'd surmise anybody that gets better sleep in a 737 jumpseat than a crewroom in the middle of the night wouldn't have any issues being rested after taking a redeye into their trip.
All that said, I'm curious to know how I'm "delusional" and "flat out incorrect".
Again, *my* experiences when *I* was a probationary RJ FO...
12-23-2013, 04:48 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: Precarious
Posts: 382
What is with the constant "overpaid regional captains are taking regional fo pay" I keep seeing in various threads? There are exactly 0 overpaid regional pilots currently working in the US. No full time regional captain should be making less than $120K and no regional FO should be making less than $60K. Regional FO pay sucks (I am one), and should improve, but the improvement should not come out of the captains check. We all are worth more.
12-23-2013, 05:23 PM
#16
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,222
The pay and QOL is directly dependent upon the contract and work rules each pilot group decides they can accept......
My previous experience included Comair in the very early 2000's..... I think I made $24k first year and mid to upper $30s-low $40's from year 2-5..... Coupled with a massive route structure and good regional work rules, I was able to make it work as a single guy in his mid 20's.... Was it ideal...no. But I made as much as a teacher, or a medical intern as a new pilot....
Unfortunately the whipsaw and even younger pilots willing to do it for less in hopes of growth and a quick upgrade, ruined what was good at Comair.( talking about CHQ here BTW).. When the pay and work rules weren't sufficient.....I quit
If the situation doesn't work, bust your a.ss and work on an escape route.. The pay/QOL is only going backwards.. Too many pussified pilots too afraid of the threat of unemployment. I'd like to see the constant barrage on regional wages end, but I just don't see an end in sight considering many regional guys are still in the infancy stage of their careers.
My previous experience included Comair in the very early 2000's..... I think I made $24k first year and mid to upper $30s-low $40's from year 2-5..... Coupled with a massive route structure and good regional work rules, I was able to make it work as a single guy in his mid 20's.... Was it ideal...no. But I made as much as a teacher, or a medical intern as a new pilot....
Unfortunately the whipsaw and even younger pilots willing to do it for less in hopes of growth and a quick upgrade, ruined what was good at Comair.( talking about CHQ here BTW).. When the pay and work rules weren't sufficient.....I quit
If the situation doesn't work, bust your a.ss and work on an escape route.. The pay/QOL is only going backwards.. Too many pussified pilots too afraid of the threat of unemployment. I'd like to see the constant barrage on regional wages end, but I just don't see an end in sight considering many regional guys are still in the infancy stage of their careers.
12-23-2013, 07:45 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 555
Originally Posted by conquestdz
What is with the constant "overpaid regional captains are taking regional fo pay" I keep seeing in various threads? There are exactly 0 overpaid regional pilots currently working in the US. No full time regional captain should be making less than $120K and no regional FO should be making less than $60K. Regional FO pay sucks (I am one), and should improve, but the improvement should not come out of the captains check. We all are worth more.
Here are two salaries for jobs that require more knowledge, experience and training than pilots:
Senior Aerospace Engineer: US Median $93,969
Senior Programmer: US Median $86,494 (This job is hugely in demand!)
But a pilot should get $120k? I think senior pilots' corrupt notion of how much they should be paid plays a big part in how backward pilot compensation has become.
12-23-2013, 07:47 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,987
The FAA and government don't care about your quality of life or how much you make. They just want you to fly safe. This concern won't end in higher pay for pilots. If you want the industry to change you have to change it and stop waiting/hoping someone else will do something (alpa, FAA, congress, sky king, etc).
12-23-2013, 08:25 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: Precarious
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by RV5M
$120k? Is that number based on anything, or just part of the "more" that everyone wants? Take a look at comparable jobs with similar training requirements and barriers to entry, they don't pay $120k.
Here are two salaries for jobs that require more knowledge, experience and training than pilots:
Senior Aerospace Engineer: US Median $93,969
Senior Programmer: US Median $86,494 (This job is hugely in demand!)
But a pilot should get $120k? I think senior pilots' corrupt notion of how much they should be paid plays a big part in how backward pilot compensation has become.
Here are two salaries for jobs that require more knowledge, experience and training than pilots:
Senior Aerospace Engineer: US Median $93,969
Senior Programmer: US Median $86,494 (This job is hugely in demand!)
But a pilot should get $120k? I think senior pilots' corrupt notion of how much they should be paid plays a big part in how backward pilot compensation has become.
My main point however, was that we should not be looking to raise the pay of first officers at the regional level by reducing the pay of captains at the regional level. That is a shortsighted erosion of the career. Our piece of the mainline profit pie is so skinny that it takes a laser to slice it. Our contributions are worth a bigger slice.
12-23-2013, 08:55 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Retired
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by Packrat
It is absolutely a pyramid scheme. Everyone thinks they're going to be a 747 International Captain and make huge bucks.
The truth of the matter is only a small fraction of pilots will ever make it to a Major airline, much less a whale left seat.
A lot of you are going to finish your career in the left seat of an RJ so you'd better sack up and stop voting for substandard contracts. And you'd better be willing to strike to get what you deserve.
The truth of the matter is only a small fraction of pilots will ever make it to a Major airline, much less a whale left seat.
A lot of you are going to finish your career in the left seat of an RJ so you'd better sack up and stop voting for substandard contracts. And you'd better be willing to strike to get what you deserve.
I am sorry, but the simplistic "Follow Me Over the Cliff in the name of ALPA" crap is not what this industry needs.
What we need is unity, and that means that we have to stop eating our young, preying on our weak and washing our hands like Pontius Pilot.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
