Mason32

You say things like being spun off would let you bid on new flying. Then in the same post you say full pay to the last day. Do you not understand that in the FFD world that doesn't work?

You can bid; but with your costs you won't bid competitively. You may as well just bend over for Parker.

Bzzt

At least our destiny would be in our own hands. Being a wholly owned carrier really doesn't offer any advantages. You're subject to the parent company and can't get flying for anyone else.

Also who says we aren't competitive? According to our MEC the company will not show any numbers to support their demand for concessions.

The bottom line is there is nothing that union cooperation can really do, we tried that with the US Airways ALPA carriers and look how that turned out. APA and EGL ALPA have very different agendas, pilots don't drive who flies what and where. APA gave away the scope and now we're all forced to deal with it, that genie is not going back in the bottle.

I fail to see how APA coming to our MEC and saying "Great job guys, don't take concessions" does anything for my career.

172 Captain

There in may lie your problem

CaptainNameless

3/9/1997

Carty, who has led the management negotiating team since last summer {1996}, used the videotaped presentation {mailed directly to homes of APA pilots} to defend American's proposal that pilots for commuter affiliate American Eagle - not American crew members - fly new regional jets.


It would be interesting to watch this video almost 17 years later...

What

In America today we have lost our backbone and it starts at the top with our elected leaders. We have the same problem in the airlines, we have many people who settle and are not willing to stay informed and fight. By staying informed I don't mean come and read what's on APC or EL, but actually look at the numbers and research.

I went to the MEC meeting and I wanted to speak directly with the CEO and Director of Flight OPS about their demands and operation. Our Union LECs tried but the company said it wouldn't discuss things outside of executive order, even then she the motion was raised we had reps vote against it but they needed hard answers from the company so they went into executive session. The point was driven and there were 3 of us there, we were there as line pilots to speak directly with management and they were not prepared for it. There is one thing addressing a rep who you know and who you will bargain with and another is the unpredictable environment of a regular pilot asking you in an open forum.

I urge you internet tough guys to get out there, talk to these guys face to face. Put the pressure on them, most of these letters you are getting are from guys who are just figures and get marching orders from Kirby and Parker, put pressure on them. The most powerful thing is an unified pilot group as well as an informed pilot group.

Not bashing PSA, but they did their negotiations in the blind, they were not given hard numbers and basically adjusted the contract on the back of a pick up truck. It was a shotgun deal that was sold on the premise of growth RJs coming and shifting flying from competitors to them.

APA speaking with AE-ALPA is a great step, remember that this is a long haul. The odds of these airframes going to mainline today are slim, but as the next few years unravel with FAR 117, 1500 rule, lack of interest and or ability to enter the profession and retirements could lead to more flying shifting to the mainline certificate. APA openly communicating with AE pilots also puts pressure on ALPA national to represent the Eagle pilots or have the possibility of being replaced by APA.

Two heads think better than one, APA has been dealing with Parker and Kirby now for almost two years and they know the players, soon the US Airways guys will join APA and they have been dealing with the players for a decade. Small things here and there can and will make a difference. Numbers for Eagle pilots of one list are distant dreams but there is so much more that can be accomplished in the short term that can pave the ways. Remember that APA still needs to negotiate a contract with this same management and there SCOPE will be defined, APA is not Delta, they won't sell SCOPE in exchange for pay raises. I can't remember them doing it outside of BK and or 9/11 effects. The AA guys have stood tall against RJs, and they are now offering their support and help to the guys that fly them. Is it for selfish reasons, likely, same as us wanting the airplanes at mainline. There is a whole lot of little things in these talk that add to a whole lot of value. Bzzt, you need to look at more than just tomorrow, and please join the fight instead of being part of the problem. You are dealing with people who got to where they dod by stepping over people and now you are standing between them and their money. They will step over you to get it, it's up to you to fight against and mitigate the situation as much as you can.

Mason32

No advantages? Do you see any non owned creating and expanding flow through

Actually, after reading the rest of your post; I retract everything I said to "you"... "You" should leave Eagle immediately.

Bzzt

The only day that matters is tomorrow. I really couldn't care less if the ground work is being laid to make this career great 10+ years down the road, that will help guys not here yet, but I assure you they aren't going to thank or remember those of us unfortunate enough to be in the career today. This is the same reason I argue against having a flow agreement and being owned by AAG in the first place. 8 years from now there's a realistic chance I'll be at AA, but I'd give that up in 1 second to be divested and have a better chance of getting in through the front door. 8 years from now is too late.

The long game of this is nothing but wind, I want changes and improvements yesterday. As humans we don't live forever, in this career we only have a certain amount of years to reach our goals. If it doesn't happen soon it was a pointless fight.

I don't know that ALPA national even wants to represent regionals. From what I've heard from previous MEC members they have led me to believe that only AE and XJT make ALPA any money. I personally believe that ALPA would be more than happy to see AE pilots seek APA membership.

As to APA standing strong I have no doubt they'll try, but they hitched their wagon to the worst management group of all the major airlines simply because they hated AMR management. They have an incredibly difficult fight ahead, I wish them luck.

As to me being the problem, how? I don't believe APA and ALPA collaboration is worth anything because they either can't or won't give us what we want, jobs there with no off the street hires ahead of us. I have no use for them if that goal can't be accomplished.

Bzzt

The flow through is an absolute joke and a hindrance to my career. As eagle shrinks my relative seniority will stay the same til the day my number finally gets called. I would gladly give up the entire protected pilot flowthrough for an extra $.25 a hour pay. This also wouldn't hurt the 824 who have a legitimate flow with few people pushed on to the seniority list ahead of them. The 824 flowing with an airline that is reasonably the same size also upgrades nearly all the current FOs. I know we are shrinking so this math doesn't really work out from the regard but my point is how worthless the protected pilot flow is even at 50% of every new hire class at AA.

Edit: What hints you gave were completely off base. Industry changing and everyone will be applying at Eagle. What a joke, APA coming down off their mighty horse to speak with us peasants at the EGL MEC and offering advice is just a tad short of earth shattering in my opinion.

But then again I'm the idiot who read too much into a random internet poster's words. I really only blame myself.

2nd edit: These boards are bad for me, it only makes me more angry than I already am. I'm sure a heart attack or aneurysm is coming for me.

PilotJ3

When are you going to understand that they can't spill the beans of negotiation in the internet?

They might talked something more that an "advise", let them work. I'm for sure know that the MEC might be mental and physically tired of doing the counteroffer.

Like management does, keep it quiet and then drop the bomb.

Relax man, just go to work, do your job and go home. Don't let forums drive your emotions.

The only thing I can say to you is, if you're not happy just leave. Be happy bzzt

Bzzt

I won't be happy til I am out of this regional mess. Every day I'm here I get a little closer to hanging myself. I have never once come to work at Eagle looking forward to it.