Please hammer this ignorant Reporter by email
02-13-2014 | 09:51 AM
#31
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,153
Likes: 48
From: Supreme Allied Commander
Here we go again, we have to rehash this accident over and over because some people just don't get it. How many hours did Renslow and Shaw have WHEN HIRED to fly for the airlines? Go find the NTSB report and you will find the answer. Hint: they had way less than ATP requirements. Another piece of the puzzle for those that still don't get it: both of these airmen would have had to instruct hundreds of more hours teaching basic airmanship which include STALLS. I capitalize the word stalls to help those that are still not connecting all the clues. The bottom line, this accident would not of happened if both of these pilots would have entered airline flying with ATP minimums.
So your saying this captain with over 6k hrs, having practiced stalls twice a year in sim for years, having practiced stalls countless times in his own training a decade before...needed 500 hours more as an instructor/banner tower/freight hauler/time builder to realize a stall shaker = pitch down. Wow what a solution, thats all it takes to assure a pilot recovers from the most basic procedure in flying, 1500hr, not 1400 nor 1000. Think of all of the airline pilots currently flying today that were hired under 1500 hrs. Im sure there are thousands out there.. scary huh? Why this 30 year captain could even be one of them!
Its the quality of experience you have, not just quantity. Thats the whole point I was making. ATP guarantees nothing without changes to what has to be learned. Flying in the military and getting out 11 years later still doesn't get many to ATP mins.
02-13-2014 | 10:03 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
From: Left
Let's talk about Renslow, since you brought him up. Do you know what his history is?
He started out like we all do, as a student pilot. That means that aside from a few solo hours, there's always someone next to him to bail him out if he should make a truly disastrous decision. He passed (eventually) the necessary check-rides and earned a Commercial certificate.
He then paid for training at Gulfstream. This means that as an FO, he always had someone next to him to catch any major blunders, or unsafe decisions.
He then got hired at Colgan. As an FO. And the Captain was always there to bail him out, should he screw up in a seriously massive way.
He then upgraded. He was flying left-seat in a part 121 operation, having spent very few hours having to actually make his own decisions in an airplane. And almost zero hours in an environment where his decisions were actually the ones that would stick.
To be honest, one of the biggest lessons I learned from being a CFI was built over time. It was the emphasis and clarification that the only level of safety that was going to be enforced, was mine. There's no one else to help anymore. Looking back, that was absolutely invaluable time spent as PIC. Not just flying around by myself where I can control (mostly) the situations that arise, but by flying with new and different people consistently, who will always do the unexpected.
He started out like we all do, as a student pilot. That means that aside from a few solo hours, there's always someone next to him to bail him out if he should make a truly disastrous decision. He passed (eventually) the necessary check-rides and earned a Commercial certificate.
He then paid for training at Gulfstream. This means that as an FO, he always had someone next to him to catch any major blunders, or unsafe decisions.
He then got hired at Colgan. As an FO. And the Captain was always there to bail him out, should he screw up in a seriously massive way.
He then upgraded. He was flying left-seat in a part 121 operation, having spent very few hours having to actually make his own decisions in an airplane. And almost zero hours in an environment where his decisions were actually the ones that would stick.
To be honest, one of the biggest lessons I learned from being a CFI was built over time. It was the emphasis and clarification that the only level of safety that was going to be enforced, was mine. There's no one else to help anymore. Looking back, that was absolutely invaluable time spent as PIC. Not just flying around by myself where I can control (mostly) the situations that arise, but by flying with new and different people consistently, who will always do the unexpected.
As I gained experience as a CFI a lot of times I could tell what mistakes a student was going to make before they even made the actual mistake.
CFIing made me the pilot I am now. Unfortunately I did it for way longer than I wanted or expected coming out of college. It's not the only way to get to an airline flight deck obviously but the importance of the experience I gained cannot be understated.
The thing is experience is hard to quantify. I'm ok with quantifying it at 1500 hours though.
02-13-2014 | 10:30 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,579
Likes: 77
I disagree thoroughly.
So your saying this captain with over 6k hrs, having practiced stalls twice a year in sim for years, having practiced stalls countless times in his own training a decade before...needed 500 hours more as an instructor/banner tower/freight hauler/time builder to realize a stall shaker = pitch down. Wow what a solution, thats all it takes to assure a pilot recovers from the most basic procedure in flying, 1500hr, not 1400 nor 1000. Think of all of the airline pilots currently flying today that were hired under 1500 hrs. Im sure there are thousands out there.. scary huh? Why this 30 year captain could even be one of them!
Its the quality of experience you have, not just quantity. Thats the whole point I was making. ATP guarantees nothing without changes to what has to be learned. Flying in the military and getting out 11 years later still doesn't get many to ATP mins.
So your saying this captain with over 6k hrs, having practiced stalls twice a year in sim for years, having practiced stalls countless times in his own training a decade before...needed 500 hours more as an instructor/banner tower/freight hauler/time builder to realize a stall shaker = pitch down. Wow what a solution, thats all it takes to assure a pilot recovers from the most basic procedure in flying, 1500hr, not 1400 nor 1000. Think of all of the airline pilots currently flying today that were hired under 1500 hrs. Im sure there are thousands out there.. scary huh? Why this 30 year captain could even be one of them!
Its the quality of experience you have, not just quantity. Thats the whole point I was making. ATP guarantees nothing without changes to what has to be learned. Flying in the military and getting out 11 years later still doesn't get many to ATP mins.
Your condescending tone clearly shows your lack of maturity, experience and maturity are two things lacking in this industry and something even the best training program cannot teach.
02-13-2014 | 10:38 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
I get your point, but I'll stick to my position. In an word, yes. He is less qualified. He has lesser qualifications.
This is why we have check rides.
Is a student pilot who has 70 hours less qualified than a private pilot who has 60 hours? Yes. Is the holder of an associates degree with 130 credit hours less qualified than the holder of a bachelor's degree with 120? Yes.
Experience + certification = qualifications. If you haven't yet passed an ATP ride, why should I give you the benefit of the doubt based on your experience, and assume you have ATP-level skills? A certification ride isn't about qualification, it's about quantification.
.
This is why we have check rides.
Is a student pilot who has 70 hours less qualified than a private pilot who has 60 hours? Yes. Is the holder of an associates degree with 130 credit hours less qualified than the holder of a bachelor's degree with 120? Yes.
Experience + certification = qualifications. If you haven't yet passed an ATP ride, why should I give you the benefit of the doubt based on your experience, and assume you have ATP-level skills? A certification ride isn't about qualification, it's about quantification.
.
02-13-2014 | 10:41 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 880
Likes: 0
From: Airbus 319/320 Captain
I disagree thoroughly.
So your saying this captain with over 6k hrs, having practiced stalls twice a year in sim for years, having practiced stalls countless times in his own training a decade before...needed 500 hours more as an instructor/banner tower/freight hauler/time builder to realize a stall shaker = pitch down. Wow what a solution, thats all it takes to assure a pilot recovers from the most basic procedure in flying, 1500hr, not 1400 nor 1000. Think of all of the airline pilots currently flying today that were hired under 1500 hrs. Im sure there are thousands out there.. scary huh? Why this 30 year captain could even be one of them!
Its the quality of experience you have, not just quantity. Thats the whole point I was making. ATP guarantees nothing without changes to what has to be learned. Flying in the military and getting out 11 years later still doesn't get many to ATP mins.
So your saying this captain with over 6k hrs, having practiced stalls twice a year in sim for years, having practiced stalls countless times in his own training a decade before...needed 500 hours more as an instructor/banner tower/freight hauler/time builder to realize a stall shaker = pitch down. Wow what a solution, thats all it takes to assure a pilot recovers from the most basic procedure in flying, 1500hr, not 1400 nor 1000. Think of all of the airline pilots currently flying today that were hired under 1500 hrs. Im sure there are thousands out there.. scary huh? Why this 30 year captain could even be one of them!
Its the quality of experience you have, not just quantity. Thats the whole point I was making. ATP guarantees nothing without changes to what has to be learned. Flying in the military and getting out 11 years later still doesn't get many to ATP mins.
02-13-2014 | 10:42 AM
#36
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Let's talk about Renslow, since you brought him up. Do you know what his history is?
He started out like we all do, as a student pilot. That means that aside from a few solo hours, there's always someone next to him to bail him out if he should make a truly disastrous decision. He passed (eventually) the necessary check-rides and earned a Commercial certificate.
He then paid for training at Gulfstream. This means that as an FO, he always had someone next to him to catch any major blunders, or unsafe decisions.
He then got hired at Colgan. As an FO. And the Captain was always there to bail him out, should he screw up in a seriously massive way.
He then upgraded. He was flying left-seat in a part 121 operation, having spent very few hours having to actually make his own decisions in an airplane. And almost zero hours in an environment where his decisions were actually the ones that would stick.
To be honest, one of the biggest lessons I learned from being a CFI was built over time. It was the emphasis and clarification that the only level of safety that was going to be enforced, was mine. There's no one else to help anymore. Looking back, that was absolutely invaluable time spent as PIC. Not just flying around by myself where I can control (mostly) the situations that arise, but by flying with new and different people consistently, who will always do the unexpected.
He started out like we all do, as a student pilot. That means that aside from a few solo hours, there's always someone next to him to bail him out if he should make a truly disastrous decision. He passed (eventually) the necessary check-rides and earned a Commercial certificate.
He then paid for training at Gulfstream. This means that as an FO, he always had someone next to him to catch any major blunders, or unsafe decisions.
He then got hired at Colgan. As an FO. And the Captain was always there to bail him out, should he screw up in a seriously massive way.
He then upgraded. He was flying left-seat in a part 121 operation, having spent very few hours having to actually make his own decisions in an airplane. And almost zero hours in an environment where his decisions were actually the ones that would stick.
To be honest, one of the biggest lessons I learned from being a CFI was built over time. It was the emphasis and clarification that the only level of safety that was going to be enforced, was mine. There's no one else to help anymore. Looking back, that was absolutely invaluable time spent as PIC. Not just flying around by myself where I can control (mostly) the situations that arise, but by flying with new and different people consistently, who will always do the unexpected.
Obviously there is going to be a varied level of talent out there and many pilots are going to be capable of performing the job at very high levels with much less than 1500 hrs. I began my first 121 job at about a thousand hours and never had any problem. I have a close family member who is a physician and I can guarantee that he was proficient long before his "training" was complete. Does that mean we reduce the minimum training to the level of the best of us, or do we set the bar to a high level that not only ensures safety, but also reasonable barriers to entry.
The legacy carriers have always required greater levels of qualification, because they could. There was more competition because the jobs were better. I think it is in all our interests, even for those just starting out, that the bar remains high.
Now does requiring greater levels of qualification make the industry safer? At a minimum it will not make it more unsafe.
02-13-2014 | 10:55 AM
#37
Day puke
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 0
From: Out.
I disagree thoroughly.
So your saying this captain with over 6k hrs, having practiced stalls twice a year in sim for years, having practiced stalls countless times in his own training a decade before...needed 500 hours more as an instructor/banner tower/freight hauler/time builder to realize a stall shaker = pitch down. Wow what a solution, thats all it takes to assure a pilot recovers from the most basic procedure in flying, 1500hr, not 1400 nor 1000. Think of all of the airline pilots currently flying today that were hired under 1500 hrs. Im sure there are thousands out there.. scary huh? Why this 30 year captain could even be one of them!
Its the quality of experience you have, not just quantity. Thats the whole point I was making. ATP guarantees nothing without changes to what has to be learned. Flying in the military and getting out 11 years later still doesn't get many to ATP mins.
So your saying this captain with over 6k hrs, having practiced stalls twice a year in sim for years, having practiced stalls countless times in his own training a decade before...needed 500 hours more as an instructor/banner tower/freight hauler/time builder to realize a stall shaker = pitch down. Wow what a solution, thats all it takes to assure a pilot recovers from the most basic procedure in flying, 1500hr, not 1400 nor 1000. Think of all of the airline pilots currently flying today that were hired under 1500 hrs. Im sure there are thousands out there.. scary huh? Why this 30 year captain could even be one of them!
Its the quality of experience you have, not just quantity. Thats the whole point I was making. ATP guarantees nothing without changes to what has to be learned. Flying in the military and getting out 11 years later still doesn't get many to ATP mins.
Decision-making and airmanship are the two cornerstones of being a good pilot.
Decision-making comes from getting grey hairs (experiences, not age). Those who have taken an underpowered, overloaded, underequiped craft into weather that didn't look too bad on the ground but now is making him have a long talk with his deity, have a greater appreciation for the power of mother nature. Now, they know better and make better decisions.
Airmanship comes from having your hands on the stick.
Let's say an airline pilot flies 4 legs per day, works 15 days per month, and handflies up to 10,000 and FAF to landing. Do the math: 4 legs * 1/2 legs as PF * 15 days * (5 minutes on the climb + 3 minutes on the landing) = 240 minutes or 4 hours per month.
No, let's compare that to the Metro driver hauling boxes from Del Rio to Dallas. 20 nights per month * 2 legs each night * 90 minutes of handflying (no autopilot) = 3600 minutes or 60 hours per month.
Which one of those two has a better touch for the controls right now? Which one, sitting in an RJ a year from now, will have a better skill set to draw from?
Programming an FMS, calling speed-mode-nav-mode-autopilot-on at 600, and arming the coupled ILS approach mode doesn't teach one to fly. I learned more about flying in my first 100 hours as an instructor (much of it unusual attitude recovery) than I did in the other 16 years. Most of the folks I know who used to instruct have similar opinions.
02-13-2014 | 10:59 AM
#38
No Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
From: CRJ FO
The Pilot Shortage Made in Congress | National Review Online
This article made me so mad I just sent her a very nasty email requesting she redact the entire article.
Her email is: [email protected]
We need to squash the ignorance in the news.
This article made me so mad I just sent her a very nasty email requesting she redact the entire article.
Her email is: [email protected]
We need to squash the ignorance in the news.
02-13-2014 | 11:03 AM
#39
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Yes, that is what I am saying. He/She never had time to master the basics - something more time flying with a student would have instilled, to the extent that even 20 years later a pilot with solid fundamentals wouldn't even have to think about how to react to a stall. Without a solid base of fundamental airmanship you see what happens. It is the same as Air France, who does not have a reputation for having a slack training program.
Your condescending tone clearly shows your lack of maturity, experience and maturity are two things lacking in this industry and something even the best training program cannot teach.
Your condescending tone clearly shows your lack of maturity, experience and maturity are two things lacking in this industry and something even the best training program cannot teach.
How we ensure pilots make it through those formative first thousand-ish hours can happen in a number of ways; sponsorships, stipends, airline purchased training aircraft, fixing pay (making the sacrifice of gaining experience worth it.)
The industry needs to get serious about pilot and mechanic development and retention! No more kicking the can down the road for someone else to deal with!!
02-13-2014 | 11:30 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Here we go again, we have to rehash this accident over and over because some people just don't get it. How many hours did Renslow and Shaw have WHEN HIRED to fly for the airlines? Go find the NTSB report and you will find the answer. Hint: they had way less than ATP requirements. Another piece of the puzzle for those that still don't get it: both of these airmen would have had to instruct hundreds of more hours teaching basic airmanship which include STALLS. I capitalize the word stalls to help those that are still not connecting all the clues. The bottom line, this accident would not of happened if both of these pilots would have entered airline flying with ATP minimums.
2. There is no CFI requirement in this rule.
3. I can see your point, but nobody can say this accident would not have happened if they had ATP minimums.
I continue to see a lot of posts saying that if you have the hours, you are qualified. This is wrong on so many levels!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
