It's not a million-dollar question....it's easy. It's not about competing against your colleagues. It's about achieving experience and it being recognized as you transition from one position to another either within your company or with a new company.

I can't understand why pilots find this concept so difficult to grasp. I'm certain it's just from a lack of experience outside the system they are currently imprisoned in...that and total denial.

 

OK, here's the facts. I flew for 4 airlines. At every single airline, ALPA was used as a stepping stone to management, or as personal gain. A union is only as strong as it's weakest link. At every airline, you have every single pilot running into the chief pilot's office and squealing. Watch out for the guys that hang at the chief pilot's office. They will slice your throat.

Don't blame ALPA. It's not their fault.

The other major part of the problem at REGIONALS is that everyone is afraid of getting a bad/secret/ backdoor word against them. That includes THE ALPA BOYS ON THE negotiating committee.

Everything you say, or do goes back to the chief pilot's office. PIC, SIC, whatever, it goes back to them. Few pilots keep anything out of pro standards, like they should.

I work in management now. I've seen it all.

Don't blame ALPA, you ARE your're own worst enemy.

 

9G,

You are new to this forum as of May. Out of curiosity, which major do you work for?

How would a merit based system be more fair?
How would you prevent cronyism?
I could see a problem with certain demographics(fighter, transports, academy, civilian, etc) gaining ground in flight ops management and skewing hiring, upgrades etc based on their background. Hell, at my company the flight ops mgmt. crowd already appears to do that.

 

http://9gag.com/gag/anYmvDB?ref=fbp

 

First...what does "fair" have to do with anything? Do you think everything is fair? Are we living in a society of entitlements where everything should be fair?

Do you think it's fair that if you put 20 years into a job and they go under all the employees should have to give up their career or start at the bottom somewhere else?

Do you think it's fair that a pilot who is mediocre at best can advance through his career by just barely scraping by with his co pilots carrying his weight because he had a decent personality and managed to get hired at the right airline at the right time?

Besides, you just pointed out that nothing about the current system prevents cronyism anyway. I see no difference. The seniority system makes cronyism worse because a particular "demographic" can easily stack the deck in a seniority system and then that airline is stuck with it for the whole generation even if the "demographic" changes.

Personally...I don't see any of this as relevant to the discussion though.

My point is that pilots, like most professions, should be able to get a job and a position based on their experience.

If you are a Boeing captain somewhere, and you want to leave your job for whatever reason to work for another airline, you should have the right to apply for a position at that other airline at the same position and that airline should have the right to hire you. There are tons of valid reasons why someone may want to do this.

Our current system of seniority locks you into your job...it's worse than being in the military. Pilots in communist countries have more freedom.

What baffles me is why so many pilots think this is good for their career and their pay.

 

Again, where do you work? Reality is that the FAA sets the standard we must pass. It is up to the training/checking dept to enforce that standard. In my 18 years with my company, I flew with only 2-3 Capts that should not have been there. In your world, how would pay and benefits work? Each pilot on individual contracts based on what they negotiate? Outside of startups and some Asian airlines, how does the rest of the world work in aviation? IE: the KLMs, British airways, AF, Japan airlines, Quantas etc. How is hiring off the street pilots onto the list going to guarantee the best pilots? Just because someone has Boeing time doesn't mean they will be the best pilot/employee. What standard will they be held to? My guess is the current FAA standard?

 

NineGTurn:

You're obviously too exceptional an aviator to be shackled to the seniority system and forced to carry us inferior pilots who barely squeak by. You're superior skills would be better served in corporate aviation, where your rugged individualism would be unencumbered by the socialist fetters of seniority. That's where the true "company men" get ahead.

 

Bingo!!!!!

 

I haven't been a first officer in almost 20 years so I don't fly with too many captains any more. But I hear plenty of stories and I recall how it was back then.

As far as my skills, I'm not afraid to compete in an open market, you can be the judge. Although I never would expect exceptional flying skills to have much of role in a free market anyway...unless you've done something exception like ditch in a river somewhere and save a bunch of lives. Only credit for experience. Although I would like to see captain qualifications, training and testing standards for captains increased a bit, especially at the regionals.

I haven't flown for a regional airline in over 20 years but I recall it very well. I see what is happening today as a cancer spreading slowly to the top. I see my pay is lower than what I would have earned in my position in the past after adjusting for inflation. As is all of yours.

I used to blindly trust the system just like you. I have, however, felt shackled for a long time and have really only recently realized the incredible inefficiencies of our system and how it has been carefully crafted over time to work against us as pilots.
____________________________________

GogglesPisano doesn't even deserve a response because he posted almost the exact same stuff to me in a previous thread of similar topic and is only trolling. He clearly thinks he's smart by comparing my opinions to President Hoover's anti-socialist agenda...which I still take as a compliment...thank you G.

I do firmly believe that seniority systems are the worst kind of socialized labor and only serve to encourage mediocrity. And I'm not even a hard line conservative...I'm not against unions done right.

reference thread: 81579-these-ceos-may-have-point

 

Fair question....of course not! They would be paid the going rate for their seat and position, same as everyone else, with raises for longevity (seniority) ...but now that airline must compete for the pilot with other airlines and will be forced to increase or match pay based on a free and open market....good for pilots.

Right now the airlines only compete for new co pilots. Historically what an airline pays it's top captains today will have very little to do with what they will pay their new hires in the future after they've built twenty years of seniority...assuming the airline is still around.

Of course the current FAA standards...which I think are artificially low to allow 2500 hour jet captains at the regionals. Look at how check rides (esp at the regionals) have been dumbed down over the years. i.e. getting rid of circling approach requirements, etc.

If you are really interested read through my previous posts because I'm being very repetitive in this thread. I'm not alone in my perceptions.

This discussion isn't about making sure the airlines get the best possible pilots/employees, I don't see how that challenge would be any different anyway. That's management and the airline's problem. This discussion is about making sure pilots are allowed to compete on a level field and force their airline to match or raise pay with the threat of being able to get hired elsewhere for more money.

That last part is the main point of my argument but you keep adding all these other factors as if it's your job as a pilot to make sure your airline is properly staffed. Seniority is a tool of management, not a protection for pilots.