ASA MEC update regarding XJT MEC
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 360
Ive told you twice that the LXJET MEC has met with the company to negotiate PBS agreements behind the backs of the LASA MEC.
It has been explained to you three or four times that by doing this, they are violating the terms of the Transition and Process Agreement.
We cant do any more for you.
It has been explained to you three or four times that by doing this, they are violating the terms of the Transition and Process Agreement.
We cant do any more for you.
#43
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
It is difficult to watch this debate being framed in contractual terms, when at the fundamental level this is about unity.
L-XJT has their contract because they had the benefit of unity with their mainline brothers. L-ASA did not have this benefit. L-ASA has been economically forced to write a more competitive contract.
Perhaps what the L-XJT side does not appreciate is the alter-ego hell they are in. Delta has been the most aggressive of the major carriers in managing down the cost of outsourced flying. It would appear they've even priced the flying below the level of sustainability (with several bankrupt carriers in the wake). UCAL and American are following Delta.
With a macro level focus you should understand that you are hugely exposed to alter ego replacement unless you find a way to unity first. Delta doesn't mind a whit if you guys fight eachother to the death ... in fact, it helps management. But, if pilots stand together, management can not replace us.
L-XJT has their contract because they had the benefit of unity with their mainline brothers. L-ASA did not have this benefit. L-ASA has been economically forced to write a more competitive contract.
Perhaps what the L-XJT side does not appreciate is the alter-ego hell they are in. Delta has been the most aggressive of the major carriers in managing down the cost of outsourced flying. It would appear they've even priced the flying below the level of sustainability (with several bankrupt carriers in the wake). UCAL and American are following Delta.
With a macro level focus you should understand that you are hugely exposed to alter ego replacement unless you find a way to unity first. Delta doesn't mind a whit if you guys fight eachother to the death ... in fact, it helps management. But, if pilots stand together, management can not replace us.
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: Reclined seat
Posts: 629
It is difficult to watch this debate being framed in contractual terms, when at the fundamental level this is about unity.
L-XJT has their contract because they had the benefit of unity with their mainline brothers. L-ASA did not have this benefit. L-ASA has been economically forced to write a more competitive contract.
Perhaps what the L-XJT side does not appreciate is the alter-ego hell they are in. Delta has been the most aggressive of the major carriers in managing down the cost of outsourced flying. It would appear they've even priced the flying below the level of sustainability (with several bankrupt carriers in the wake). UCAL and American are following Delta.
With a macro level focus you should understand that you are hugely exposed to alter ego replacement unless you find a way to unity first. Delta doesn't mind a whit if you guys fight eachother to the death ... in fact, it helps management. But, if pilots stand together, management can not replace us.
L-XJT has their contract because they had the benefit of unity with their mainline brothers. L-ASA did not have this benefit. L-ASA has been economically forced to write a more competitive contract.
Perhaps what the L-XJT side does not appreciate is the alter-ego hell they are in. Delta has been the most aggressive of the major carriers in managing down the cost of outsourced flying. It would appear they've even priced the flying below the level of sustainability (with several bankrupt carriers in the wake). UCAL and American are following Delta.
With a macro level focus you should understand that you are hugely exposed to alter ego replacement unless you find a way to unity first. Delta doesn't mind a whit if you guys fight eachother to the death ... in fact, it helps management. But, if pilots stand together, management can not replace us.
jk jk
But you're right. The problem also lies within ALPA national that allows this to go on too.
#45
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
Why is it that when the ASA MEC acts in the best interest of their constituents, it's ok. But when the XJT MEC does the same, the other side takes it personal? The XJT MEC feels like smartpref is in their pilots best interest. The ASA MEC feels that flight line is. It's not personal. The agreement spells out the process to get to a single PBS. And now the ASA MEC doesn't want to abide by that agreement. My understanding is that ASA people will now be part of the negotiations, as allowed in the T&PA. So I don't see they as a problem going forward anymore. The ASA MEC agrees to abide by the Process Agreement for Interim and Single PBS and the XJT MEC will have ASA people be part of the smartpref negotiations. So what's the problem?
The problem is its against the agreement to do that. Number two, your MEC going behind our MECs back hurts both of us bc you're negotiating on something that the other party has no say on that directly affects us. It weakens our negotiating power when the two sides are making separate deals. I have no problem with your MEC testing out different software, but I do have a problem with your MEC cutting us out of negotiations.
Originally Posted by Nevets
Why is it that when the ASA MEC acts in the best interest of their constituents, it's ok. But when the XJT MEC does the same, the other side takes it personal? The XJT MEC feels like smartpref is in their pilots best interest. The ASA MEC feels that flight line is. It's not personal. The agreement spells out the process to get to a single PBS. And now the ASA MEC doesn't want to abide by that agreement. My understanding is that ASA people will now be part of the negotiations, as allowed in the T&PA. So I don't see they as a problem going forward anymore. The ASA MEC agrees to abide by the Process Agreement for Interim and Single PBS and the XJT MEC will have ASA people be part of the smartpref negotiations. So what's the problem?
The problem is its against the agreement to do that. Number two, your MEC going behind our MECs back hurts both of us bc you're negotiating on something that the other party has no say on that directly affects us. It weakens our negotiating power when the two sides are making separate deals. I have no problem with your MEC testing out different software, but I do have a problem with your MEC cutting us out of negotiations.
But here is the most important thing to keep in mind. The XJT MEC took a lot of time and effort to poll and survey the ERJ pilots to find out exactly what we want and don't want. Now they are acting accordingly so that the next TA doesn't fail. Has the ASA MEC done such diligence? That's not an attack. It might just be that the ASA pilots were not all that agains the last TA to begin with. Which is why I think they didn't poll. They didn't get the outrage emails and phone calls before and after the vote. The point being that we need a TA that will pass. This is part of that. If having ONE agreement that decides how we decide which PBS to go with, it's still ONE set of language dealing with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
So what's the problem?
Ive told you twice that the LXJET MEC has met with the company to negotiate PBS agreements behind the backs of the LASA MEC.
It has been explained to you three or four times that by doing this, they are violating the terms of the Transition and Process Agreement.
We cant do any more for you.
Originally Posted by Nevets
So what's the problem?
Ive told you twice that the LXJET MEC has met with the company to negotiate PBS agreements behind the backs of the LASA MEC.
It has been explained to you three or four times that by doing this, they are violating the terms of the Transition and Process Agreement.
We cant do any more for you.
It is difficult to watch this debate being framed in contractual terms, when at the fundamental level this is about unity.
L-XJT has their contract because they had the benefit of unity with their mainline brothers. L-ASA did not have this benefit. L-ASA has been economically forced to write a more competitive contract.
Perhaps what the L-XJT side does not appreciate is the alter-ego hell they are in. Delta has been the most aggressive of the major carriers in managing down the cost of outsourced flying. It would appear they've even priced the flying below the level of sustainability (with several bankrupt carriers in the wake). UCAL and American are following Delta.
With a macro level focus you should understand that you are hugely exposed to alter ego replacement unless you find a way to unity first. Delta doesn't mind a whit if you guys fight eachother to the death ... in fact, it helps management. But, if pilots stand together, management can not replace us.
L-XJT has their contract because they had the benefit of unity with their mainline brothers. L-ASA did not have this benefit. L-ASA has been economically forced to write a more competitive contract.
Perhaps what the L-XJT side does not appreciate is the alter-ego hell they are in. Delta has been the most aggressive of the major carriers in managing down the cost of outsourced flying. It would appear they've even priced the flying below the level of sustainability (with several bankrupt carriers in the wake). UCAL and American are following Delta.
With a macro level focus you should understand that you are hugely exposed to alter ego replacement unless you find a way to unity first. Delta doesn't mind a whit if you guys fight eachother to the death ... in fact, it helps management. But, if pilots stand together, management can not replace us.
Last edited by Nevets; 07-14-2014 at 12:28 PM.
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Captain
Posts: 101
You guys are just gonna have to realize were the bigger pilot group. That being the case, the Co realizes they only need to get the larger group on board and they have an agreement. That being said I don't care either way just get something done! I've already know were going PBS reguardless of what's said on this board. Majority rules guys, it sucks but this union isn't a Republic its a Democracy!
Your gonna lose, move on to something that's important to you guys and focus on that. This PBS issue has been decided. LXJT has out maneuvered you guys so stop crying about it!
Your gonna lose, move on to something that's important to you guys and focus on that. This PBS issue has been decided. LXJT has out maneuvered you guys so stop crying about it!
I would still like to know what the selling point of smart pref is... Specifically .... A globalized system...
#47
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJT Pilot
You guys are just gonna have to realize were the bigger pilot group. That being the case, the Co realizes they only need to get the larger group on board and they have an agreement. That being said I don't care either way just get something done! I've already know were going PBS reguardless of what's said on this board. Majority rules guys, it sucks but this union isn't a Republic its a Democracy!
Your gonna lose, move on to something that's important to you guys and focus on that. This PBS issue has been decided. LXJT has out maneuvered you guys so stop crying about it!
Yes, LXJT is bigger pilot group now... However with 40 plus airplanes headed out of the fleet in 6 months that will even things up.
I would still like to know what the selling point of smart pref is... Specifically .... A globalized system...
Originally Posted by XJT Pilot
You guys are just gonna have to realize were the bigger pilot group. That being the case, the Co realizes they only need to get the larger group on board and they have an agreement. That being said I don't care either way just get something done! I've already know were going PBS reguardless of what's said on this board. Majority rules guys, it sucks but this union isn't a Republic its a Democracy!
Your gonna lose, move on to something that's important to you guys and focus on that. This PBS issue has been decided. LXJT has out maneuvered you guys so stop crying about it!
Yes, LXJT is bigger pilot group now... However with 40 plus airplanes headed out of the fleet in 6 months that will even things up.
I would still like to know what the selling point of smart pref is... Specifically .... A globalized system...
#48
You guys are just gonna have to realize were the bigger pilot group. That being the case, the Co realizes they only need to get the larger group on board and they have an agreement. That being said I don't care either way just get something done! I've already know were going PBS reguardless of what's said on this board. Majority rules guys, it sucks but this union isn't a Republic its a Democracy!
Your gonna lose, move on to something that's important to you guys and focus on that. This PBS issue has been decided. LXJT has out maneuvered you guys so stop crying about it!
Your gonna lose, move on to something that's important to you guys and focus on that. This PBS issue has been decided. LXJT has out maneuvered you guys so stop crying about it!
#49
This has been explained many times. The XJT MEC believes that smartpref is the easiest system to provide at least the same QOL we currently have with our line bidding and associated work rules. They also believe that flight line may do the same but it would take more and better work rules to achieve that same level of QOL we currently enjoy.
#50
Talk to your reps. The ASA MEC is doing what they can for the ASA pilots. Spoke at length with an ATL rep. As far as being in "negotiations" with LXJT about PBS, that's an outright lie. They are observers. And only observers. LXJT is the bigger pilot group and if you run into any of their officers they will remind you OVER AND OVER again. Imagine dealing with nevets in a conference room and you can get an idea of what it's like to "negotiate."
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