Compass will be in Dallas"s Air Inc.
01-02-2007, 07:44 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
2. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats not owned, leased, financed, or controlled by NWA and operated at Feeder Carriers flying their own aircraft.
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 55 aircraft.
• The 55 limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline. The pay rates and work rules for the 77-110 seat mainline SJ are covered later.
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 55 aircraft.
• The 55 limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline. The pay rates and work rules for the 77-110 seat mainline SJ are covered later.
of them flown by feeder carriers. Oh, and what's this 1:1 ratio. All Northwest has to do is order 100 of these 77-110 seat jets, and now the feeders can have 190 of these 90 seat jets. Why would Northwest want to order 100 of these 100+ seat jets. Oh, how about to replace those 115 DC-9's that average over 30 years old. NORTHWEST PILOTS JUST GOT SCREWED!!! This section will allow almost 200 of these 90 seat jets to be operated at a SEPARATE regional. And that is just to replace the DC-9's. Now imagine Northwest wants to expand a little. Maybe 250-300 CRJ-900 type aircraft at SEPARATE regionals. Wow. And we haven't even covered Compass yet.
4. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats which are flown at a separate wholly owned subsidiary/affiliate of NWA (called “SJet” for now”).
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 90 total aircraft, which is inclusive of the 55 aircraft limit for the Feeder Carrier flying.
• The 90 aircraft limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline.
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 90 total aircraft, which is inclusive of the 55 aircraft limit for the Feeder Carrier flying.
• The 90 aircraft limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline.
• NWA would be allowed to sell “SJet” after 10 77-110 seat configured Small Jets “are in active service” at NWA mainline.
• If the successor owner of “SJet” does not comply with the Flow Up / Down provisions, the number of 51-76 seat SJs being flown by Feeder Carriers would be required to be reduced to a baseline of 55 aircraft.
• The pay rates and work rules for the “SJet” flying are covered later.
• Note: the trigger for NWA to outsource up to 90 76 seat configured aircraft is dependent upon maintaining the flow up/down process.
• If the successor owner of “SJet” does not comply with the Flow Up / Down provisions, the number of 51-76 seat SJs being flown by Feeder Carriers would be required to be reduced to a baseline of 55 aircraft.
• The pay rates and work rules for the “SJet” flying are covered later.
• Note: the trigger for NWA to outsource up to 90 76 seat configured aircraft is dependent upon maintaining the flow up/down process.
6. A mainline narrowbody fleet threshold (floor) would be established one year after emergence from bankruptcy.
Part 2
• Furloughed NWA pilots are entitled to 5 new hire jobs at the Feeder Carrier operating the aircraft.
• The Feeder Carrier’s furloughed pilots have first right to any jobs at their airline.
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.
Part 3
• Furloughed NWA pilots would then be entitled to ½ of the Captain and ½ of the First Officer positions created to operate the aircraft provided by NWA. (Except at Mesaba, where there are already pilots operating 35 Avros, which will be replaced.)
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.
Part 4
• Furloughed NWA pilots have the first right to the jobs at “SJet”, but will be on a separate seniority list.
• There would be a “flow up / flow down” between pilots at “SJet” and NWA, including new hire pilots at SJet and NWA. The flow up / down would be subject to metering limitations.
• Furloughed NWA pilots are entitled to 5 new hire jobs at the Feeder Carrier operating the aircraft.
• The Feeder Carrier’s furloughed pilots have first right to any jobs at their airline.
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.
Part 3
• Furloughed NWA pilots would then be entitled to ½ of the Captain and ½ of the First Officer positions created to operate the aircraft provided by NWA. (Except at Mesaba, where there are already pilots operating 35 Avros, which will be replaced.)
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.
Part 4
• Furloughed NWA pilots have the first right to the jobs at “SJet”, but will be on a separate seniority list.
• There would be a “flow up / flow down” between pilots at “SJet” and NWA, including new hire pilots at SJet and NWA. The flow up / down would be subject to metering limitations.
01-02-2007, 08:10 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
Here are some things that Northwest and ALPA could have/ SHOULD HAVE done differently.
Why did they allow aircraft certified for up to 90 seats. Almost every airline has 70 seat certified jets (CRJ-700, EMB-170), like United, American, Delta..., but NO ONE (except for America West) had 90 seat aircraft. That precident that Northwest just set will HAUNT pilots throughout the industry. 90 seat jets at the regionals, here they come!
GEE, I wonder how soon until Northwest enters about 100 of these type of aircraft into service to replace their DC-9's. That's another 100 of these 90 seat RJ's at a regional.
Hell, maybe Northwest won't even need to replace the DC-9. They got such a good concession from their pilots that these 90 seat certified RJ's that they could probably be used to OUTSOURCE ALL OF THE DC-9 FLYING!!!
Lets see, other places where ALPA and Northwest really f*cked up. This entire idea of flying 90 seat certified aircraft NOT on the Northwest pilot seniority list is exactly what Northwest wants. WHY?
You spend a few years of your career at Pinnancle/Mesaba/Compass/whoever is operating these 90 seat aircraft. Then you'd get hired at NW and start at first year pay, say flying the A320 (cause the DC-9's will be gone eventually).
Well, if these 90 seat RJ's were flown by pilots on the Northwest seniority list, when you'd upgrade to A320 FO, you would be on say 3 or 4 year pay, and that is a LOT MORE. Every year, you have a several year advantage on pay because you will have spent more time at Northwest.
Northwest is in such bad shape. They are by far in the worst position of all the legacies. After all, they are the lowest paid. They have the oldest fleet. They are in bankruptcy. And now they just outsourced all this flying. That is not only going to be brutal for ALL the pilots at Northwest, but the effects will ripple throughout the industry, and have effects on the entire pilot group. Northwest just opened a new door to outsourcing.
Why did they allow aircraft certified for up to 90 seats. Almost every airline has 70 seat certified jets (CRJ-700, EMB-170), like United, American, Delta..., but NO ONE (except for America West) had 90 seat aircraft. That precident that Northwest just set will HAUNT pilots throughout the industry. 90 seat jets at the regionals, here they come!
GEE, I wonder how soon until Northwest enters about 100 of these type of aircraft into service to replace their DC-9's. That's another 100 of these 90 seat RJ's at a regional.
Hell, maybe Northwest won't even need to replace the DC-9. They got such a good concession from their pilots that these 90 seat certified RJ's that they could probably be used to OUTSOURCE ALL OF THE DC-9 FLYING!!!
Lets see, other places where ALPA and Northwest really f*cked up. This entire idea of flying 90 seat certified aircraft NOT on the Northwest pilot seniority list is exactly what Northwest wants. WHY?
You spend a few years of your career at Pinnancle/Mesaba/Compass/whoever is operating these 90 seat aircraft. Then you'd get hired at NW and start at first year pay, say flying the A320 (cause the DC-9's will be gone eventually).
Well, if these 90 seat RJ's were flown by pilots on the Northwest seniority list, when you'd upgrade to A320 FO, you would be on say 3 or 4 year pay, and that is a LOT MORE. Every year, you have a several year advantage on pay because you will have spent more time at Northwest.
Northwest is in such bad shape. They are by far in the worst position of all the legacies. After all, they are the lowest paid. They have the oldest fleet. They are in bankruptcy. And now they just outsourced all this flying. That is not only going to be brutal for ALL the pilots at Northwest, but the effects will ripple throughout the industry, and have effects on the entire pilot group. Northwest just opened a new door to outsourcing.
01-02-2007, 08:38 PM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 70
The maximum number of RJs in the entire NWA SYSTEM may only be 90 (of which 35 are to replace the avro85 that are at Mesaba so a NET increase of only 55) and then only increased further on a 1 for 1 basis. Replacing DC-9s with 76-110 seat jets would not allow for the addition of more RJs on a 1 to 1basis due to the "floor" limit. The four options described in the NWA contract are not cumulative. Mesa could not operate 55, and Compass then operate another 55, while Pinnacle and Mesaba also operate another 55.....
Read your own quote #3 there bud, if they don't maintain the flow up/down provisions they must reduce the total number of RJs in the system from 90 to 55. Do you really think they would limit themselves or build up the feeder carriers and then risk it all by not maintaining the flow up/down?
NWA did not allow for a 90 seat jet to be operated by any regional in their system. They may operate a CERTIFICATED 90 seat airplane but only put 76 seats in it. I don't believe you will see this happen.
Read your own quote #3 there bud, if they don't maintain the flow up/down provisions they must reduce the total number of RJs in the system from 90 to 55. Do you really think they would limit themselves or build up the feeder carriers and then risk it all by not maintaining the flow up/down?
NWA did not allow for a 90 seat jet to be operated by any regional in their system. They may operate a CERTIFICATED 90 seat airplane but only put 76 seats in it. I don't believe you will see this happen.
01-03-2007, 02:53 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
NWA did not allow for a 90 seat jet to be operated by any regional in their system. They may operate a CERTIFICATED 90 seat airplane but only put 76 seats in it. I don't believe you will see this happen.
As I have stated in my previous posts, OUTSOURCING THIS FLYING IS THE WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME FOR ANY FUTURE NORTHWEST PILOTS. Not only will they be paid less when they are flying these 90 seat aircraft, but they will not be on the Northwest seniority list.
That is so terrible. Lets say a pilot flys CRJ-900's at a regional partner for 4 years, then gets hired by Northwest. Say in his 4th year he is FO on the 757. If the CRJ-900's were at Northwest, he would get 8th year pay when flying the 757, and that is a BIG DIFFERENCE! That means that EVERY year a pilot flies for Northwest, they are making less than they should because they would have had more years of service with the company. Essentially they are being paid less to fly the same mainline equipment.
Damn. I can't believe how bad they messed their scope clause up.
01-30-2007, 12:33 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
Are these Air Inc. things worth going to?
-LAFF
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