upgrade vs. wholly owned?
08-21-2014 | 07:26 AM
#11
2 days off
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Embraer Systems Analyst
The time has come for me to apply to a regional. I've got ATP mins/70 multi/ATP written. I'm a single guy that is willing to make just about anything work. Which regionals should I be targeting? I know a lot of ppl say not to chase an upgrade, however I find it hard not to when is see "most junior captain hired 2007" vs "most junior captain hired 2012". Seems like a no brainer. Am I missing something? I also think that given the volatility within industry that flying for a wholly owned regional is a smart move.
Can anyone throw me some insight on which airlines to target and why?
Can anyone throw me some insight on which airlines to target and why?
08-21-2014 | 07:32 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Just another RJ guy
It's pretty simple, go to the one that has new planes coming. If you don't go to the one that has planes coming but has the faster upgrades today, you are gambling. The only thing that makes your career bearable at the regionals is having as many seniority numbers below you as possible. Only way that happens quickly is if there's new flying.
08-21-2014 | 07:38 AM
#13
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Not exactly true IMO. I would argue that guys who took the flow under a certain set of circumstances, but were not afforded the opportunity to flow up under those circumstances should not have been forced to flow later under much different circumstances.
I know opinions differ on this specific situation, but the point I was making was that flow-through programs have done more harm than good as far as I can see. Not a great track record.
I know opinions differ on this specific situation, but the point I was making was that flow-through programs have done more harm than good as far as I can see. Not a great track record.
08-21-2014 | 07:48 AM
#14
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From: PNF
Just don't PSA your situation and you will be fine. Do whatever your mind is telling you.
Also, as for upgrade at your time, upgrade will be more like 3-4 years depending on the regional. Most minimums are 3000-4000 hours. At 600 hours per year average with EVERYONE else in the company trying to do the same, it might take longer than you think. Also, they won't lower the minimums because there are plenty of 5k hour FOs out there willing to jump ship if DECs happen.
Also, as for upgrade at your time, upgrade will be more like 3-4 years depending on the regional. Most minimums are 3000-4000 hours. At 600 hours per year average with EVERYONE else in the company trying to do the same, it might take longer than you think. Also, they won't lower the minimums because there are plenty of 5k hour FOs out there willing to jump ship if DECs happen.
08-21-2014 | 07:52 AM
#15
Living the Dream
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As many have stated, wholly-owneds aren't doing much better than anyone else. Read through a little of the Warning about Endeavor to Delta (ETD) thread and you'll get a good idea. Everyone agrees a quick upgrade is a positive thing, the hesitance to chase one comes from the possibility that when you get to a regional, upgrade time might get a lot longer before you upgrade. Research trends, who's getting new airplanes and who isn't, and who has 50-seat jets. 50-seat jets are no longer economical and have become liabilities, not assets. That's why I'd recommend against a carrier like Air Wisconsin, even though they might have a respectable contract.
A while ago, I made a post about my recommendations. It's just my humble opinion - I'm still in training and don't have any actual time on the line, and some called me on that - but I did a lot of homework and spoke to numerous friends in the industry, and this is what I came up with:
A while ago, I made a post about my recommendations. It's just my humble opinion - I'm still in training and don't have any actual time on the line, and some called me on that - but I did a lot of homework and spoke to numerous friends in the industry, and this is what I came up with:
Invariably, the ultimate question this thread will probably evolve into is: "Who should I work for?" We argue about that day and night on these boards, but allow me to humbly offer my suggestions. Keep in mind this is as of right now; things could be different in a year.
Mesa - Fast upgrade time, stable, growing, modern fleet.
Compass - Pretty much the same as Mesa.
SkyWest - This is sort of the opposite in that it's not growing and you'll have a very long upgrade (~7 years as of now). However, many of my friends have elected to go here for its well respected treatment of employees.
Horizon - Excellent pay (at least compared to other regionals). Long upgrade, however.
One other deciding factor for you might be the bases these regionals have. I live in Phoenix, so naturally Mesa was an obvious choice for me. Again, this is my humble 2 cents, do your own homework, and best of luck.
Mesa - Fast upgrade time, stable, growing, modern fleet.
Compass - Pretty much the same as Mesa.
SkyWest - This is sort of the opposite in that it's not growing and you'll have a very long upgrade (~7 years as of now). However, many of my friends have elected to go here for its well respected treatment of employees.
Horizon - Excellent pay (at least compared to other regionals). Long upgrade, however.
One other deciding factor for you might be the bases these regionals have. I live in Phoenix, so naturally Mesa was an obvious choice for me. Again, this is my humble 2 cents, do your own homework, and best of luck.
08-21-2014 | 08:20 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
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From: OO RJ FO
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ Pilot
Lets put it this way, I wouldn't put myself nor my family in any of those 1-2yr upgrade regionals.
You must not be a pilot. You obviously don't understand how the industry works. Your response has nothing to do with the OP question.
With that said, asking that question on this forum will get a thousand different responses. Everyone has different experiences. I worked for a wholly owned and it turned out bad. The mainline partner can do whatever they want...not having to abide by any contracts. They can give and TAKE airplanes as much and as often as they want.
Quick upgrades are happening at several airlines. SKW and ExpressJet have long upgrade times while Compass, Republic, Mesa, etc have quick upgrades. Research their contracts or what their pilots have to say if you can't get your hands on a contract. If you're willing to relocate...that might be your best move. I'm a little biased..Compass has super fast upgrade times, a decent contract, adding 20 more airplanes over the next year and a half, and flowing 160 more captains to Delta. No brainer. But like I said...I'm biased. I have really enjoyed my time at Compass so take that for what it's worth.
Originally Posted by RJ Pilot
Lets put it this way, I wouldn't put myself nor my family in any of those 1-2yr upgrade regionals.
You must not be a pilot. You obviously don't understand how the industry works. Your response has nothing to do with the OP question.
With that said, asking that question on this forum will get a thousand different responses. Everyone has different experiences. I worked for a wholly owned and it turned out bad. The mainline partner can do whatever they want...not having to abide by any contracts. They can give and TAKE airplanes as much and as often as they want.
Quick upgrades are happening at several airlines. SKW and ExpressJet have long upgrade times while Compass, Republic, Mesa, etc have quick upgrades. Research their contracts or what their pilots have to say if you can't get your hands on a contract. If you're willing to relocate...that might be your best move. I'm a little biased..Compass has super fast upgrade times, a decent contract, adding 20 more airplanes over the next year and a half, and flowing 160 more captains to Delta. No brainer. But like I said...I'm biased. I have really enjoyed my time at Compass so take that for what it's worth.
08-21-2014 | 08:36 AM
#17
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Apr 2006
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Neither is an asset. A quick upgrade is only good as long as there are people behind you to hire. A wholly-owned is only good if the ownership group actually wants to make it not suck.
The biggest thing you can do to make your life slightly less hellish at the regional level:
Live in base. Either move to a base, or get hired at a company that has a base where you are.
The biggest thing you can do to make your life slightly less hellish at the regional level:
Live in base. Either move to a base, or get hired at a company that has a base where you are.
08-21-2014 | 08:40 AM
#18
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 74
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From: Musical Chairs
I personally went to 2 different regionals chasing the "quick upgrade"; one in particular at a smaller airline with bases I liked, and new planes coming on property. Sounds a lot like the advice a lot of you folks are giving, right? Now I'm at the very bottom of the FO list on reserve about to get "Comaired". Looking back I wish I chose a regional that had:
1. A base I live in or would like to live in
2. Moderate movement/stability
3. A Decent contract ($ and QOL)
Unfortunately times have changed since 8 years ago when I started this endeavor (pun intended) and the regionals that had the aforementioned qualities will be shrinking or also getting "Comaired". In the end it's simply luck and timing, my friends.
1. A base I live in or would like to live in
2. Moderate movement/stability
3. A Decent contract ($ and QOL)
Unfortunately times have changed since 8 years ago when I started this endeavor (pun intended) and the regionals that had the aforementioned qualities will be shrinking or also getting "Comaired". In the end it's simply luck and timing, my friends.
08-21-2014 | 08:48 AM
#20
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Apr 2006
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