Originally Posted by TrinityDawn

The fact of the matter is that this is simply a proposal from the MEC to the company. Nothing official has been released yet, and I doubt language has even been crafted. The truth is that this will NEVER be approved by AAG. We just spent two years being beat down by Jerry Glass and Dougwiser over a few dollars a block hour. When the union tried to get Endeavor-style bonuses to retain experienced F/O's, Envoy management including Pedro were all for it...and AAG management quickly made it clear it would never happen. "Why should we?" they said. "You have flow to AA! That's all you need to attract new hires!" The ONLY thing AAG cares about is who is the lowest bidder. Paying new-hire pilots anything other than first year pay after sinking 30k into them for training goes against everything we have learned about the "new American" since the hostile takeover. AAG has zero incentive to do this, because the last thing they want is for pilots to think their experience is a valuable commodity.

Personally, I think undermining seniority is wrong. With that being said, what SHOULD happen is ALPA pushing a national seniority list at ALL the ALPA carriers, but we saw their true colors when they willingly approved PSA's back-stabbing of Envoy.

Eaglefly/Thrustlever/Lord Hummugus can ***** all he wants about certain members of our MEC apparently trying to screw other regionals for Envoy's gain, and I might even agree with him to some extent, but the original sin STILL resides with the APA for allowing ANY flying to be done outside their list. They allowed this regional model to exist through their greed. Once the camel was in the tent, they spent decades and countless negociating capital to reclaim scope and mostly failed. The reason the regionals are failing now is because management became far too greedy for the regional business model to succeed. By the time they understand what they've done, the regionals will be dead.

Labor portability is what we truly need in this industry to force airline management to deal with supply and demand once again and raise pilot salaries across the board. This proposal might be a step in the right direction despite the short term pain, but it won't happen at AAG. What's more likely is that within 5-10 years, the regionals simply won't exist anymore.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

Exactly what I've said from the beginning. It TARGETS orher carriers junior pilots (AKA poaching) and we know this is under consideration because there are insufficient new-hires from the street. Off course when the pilots at those poached carriers can't replace the poached pilots lured to Envoy, they contract, suffer downgrades and possibly fail.

Winners and losers.

But isn't that pilot's do nowday's..................screw each other to get ahead ?

Originally Posted by adspilot

You keep saying this will have a negative impact on other companies. Why can't you see the more likely possibility of those companies doing something to keep and attract more pilots? You really think this one small insignificent step will be the doom and gloom of certain regional carriers? From what I keep reading that is your whole argument.

Originally Posted by adspilot

I don't think you are ever going to convince people that paying more experienced pilots more than a new CFI is a bad/immoral thing. It's just not going to happen.

Originally Posted by Skyvector

Are you high???

People make lateral moves every day for a number of different reasons. Many more would do so if they didn't have to start over at year one pay. Then there are the instances when pilots have no choice because their airline folded. Ask anybody who worked for Comair. Or go back even further and talk to pilots from Eastern, Pan American, Braniff, and the list goes on.

And finally, this as with most other things in life has a specific target. A demographic if you will. That target demographic is First Officers. Yes, we get it. You are an uber rich Captain who would never grace anybody with his presence. This isn't for you, ace.

The more you post the more clear it becomes you have some chip on your shoulder in regards to Eagle/AA...you should get together with eaglefly. On the other hand, if you pull your head out of your rear for two seconds you would realize how this works and what the idea is. It would remove the golden handcuffs that all airline pilots are subjected to. If Envoy sets this in motion there is a good chance that other airlines would follow. Maybe not overnight, but soon enough.

Oh, and what's the deal with all these demands you have for coming over? Nobody is asking you to come to Envoy! These Donald Trump moments of yours are priceless:



And this one:



*FACEPALM*

Originally Posted by Avroman

I have no chip on my shoulder about American (I'd rather go there more than Delta or United) Just that this isn't doing much if it's asking me to give up seniority and be a bottom FO on reserve and not actually match what I am paid now. All but bottom FO's that have been stuck at a stagnant place are not getting anything unless they live in DFW or ORD and currently have to commute. I don't see this really undermining the industry, but I also don't see it creating a flood of applications either.

Originally Posted by IceManCRJ

Sounds like a great idea to me. Hopefully it works and it forces my airline to do something more dramatic to attract pilots (maybe better work rules or higher pay). Then envoy can do something else and it goes on and on. Let management whipsaw each other for a change and guess who wins in the end?

Originally Posted by Reservist

I think the goal is to get all the flying back at the majors.

There will be winners and loosers, that's life.

Regional airlines will fail.

The quicker this happens the better. If we can help collapse one of the crappiest regionals who has been dragging out contract negotiation for a decade and who's CEO is the leading the cause to repeal FTDT, this is a win.

Helping Pilots not having to start over from scratch in today's market allows this to lesson the impact on our brethren. No pilot will be greatly adversely affected. Keep in mind there are currently direct entry captain jobs, and we will hopefully get a deal that will pay FOs what they are currently making.

Stop being such a sissy.