Undermining the profession yet again ?
09-14-2015 | 11:40 AM
#31
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From: GV Captain
09-14-2015 | 11:41 AM
#32
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From: EMB 145 CPT
Just a messenger here, but word has it that Envoy ALPA is considering proposing a new scheme to poach pilots from other regionals by negotiating a contractual provision that allows pilots to come to Envoy at their former regional's pay rate (present pay) ?
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies.
Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ?
If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there.
This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because;
- It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea.
- It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable.
Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others.
If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within.
Discuss.
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies.
Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ?
If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there.
This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because;
- It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea.
- It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable.
Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others.
If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within.
Discuss.
I haven't read any other post so I don't know if it's been said, but I don't see any problem with an MEC negotiating better pay and or work rules in order to entice pilots. I do see a problem in an MEC negotiating concessions of any kind in exchange for a fleet commitment or other carrot.
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09-14-2015 | 11:47 AM
#33
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How is the ability to go to another regional without starting over at year one pay a bad thing? This levels up the competition between regionals vying for pilots. This means that the regionals have to try harder to attract and retain talent. This eliminates one of the biggest reasons pilots decide to stick it out at one company instead of starting over somewhere else. This is a good thing and it will hopefully force other regionals to implement similar policies, or offer retention packages or some other incentive to combat it. No other industry has the ridiculous pay structure we currently experience in this profession. This is a step in the right direction.
Look, everyone knows (or should) that the street pilots for the regionals simply doesn't exist in any meaningful numbers and so the only thing to do is get pilots that already exist. Problem is that whomever relinquishes pilots will not get them replaced by street pilots and so that means these carriers will contract. The equation now is one of a shrinking overall pilot base and the ONLY equation for the future is SHIFTING of that shrinking base. That means some will win and others will lose. One noteworthy Envoy water mule is known to say "pilots are the new currency" (he didn't make that up though, just parrots it) and while that is true, the valuation of that currency is a shrinking base. Airlines cannot print pilots like the US Government does Federal Reserve Notes (dollars). So, the question is who will be the winners and who will be the losers ?
If say for example, AAG decides to agree to a universal flow-thru for all pilots at their wholly-owneds and pilots from non AAG WO's (any other regional) come flocking, that means some of those carriers won't make it. There simply is no one to replace them from the street as if there were, poaching schemes wouldn't be necessary. Those left behind like the captains waiting for a major to call or those planning on a career there are now hitched to a dying carrier (which is what Envoy ALPA is trying to thwart if they pursue poaching) who cannot meet its goals, it's stock price tumbles and like RAH is on the brink.
They get to start over or head for another career path.
Once that fire is lit and some carriers become the "go to" carriers, it means hundreds if not thousands of present regional pilots WILL become the LOSERS. Unless there are sufficient street-hires to keep THEIR engine running, they become casualties in a pilot war. There ARE NOT street pilots to prevent an "everyone wins" ideal. So, are you ready to step up to the Roulette wheel and bet on Black or Red ?
Only one color pays off, they both do not. Also, what may be the winning color in 2016, may become the loser again in 2017 and what do you do then...........jump yet again to what LOOKS to be a winning color at that time ?
This will lead to a very unstable and precarious existence as each carrier then morphs itself perhaps repeatedly and frequently in the ever uncertain game of trying to survive as throngs of three-striped lemmings migrate left and right on the faintest whim of avoiding a cliff. The four-striped lemmings won't chance it and will fly or crash where they are cursing this existence if its the latter. Be careful for what you wish for and think it through before selecting a color. Personally, I think those interested in setting up this segment of the industry to look like a Las Vegas casino are seriously myopic and short-sided. I could say that it sure would be fun to watch though as yet another generation of airline pilots destroys themselves in new ways just like past generations with scope and RJ's.
But, if you must, you must and quite frankly, I think it's in our nature to act against ourselves, but I digress...........
If this casino gets set up, all I can say is good luck at the table, but remember............the house eventually always wins.
Last edited by eaglefly; 09-14-2015 at 11:57 AM.
09-14-2015 | 11:51 AM
#34
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I haven't read any other post so I don't know if it's been said, but I don't see any problem with an MEC negotiating better pay and or work rules in order to entice pilots. I do see a problem in an MEC negotiating concessions of any kind in exchange for a fleet commitment or other carrot.
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This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part.
The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ?
Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future.
09-14-2015 | 11:55 AM
#35
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How is the ability to go to another regional without starting over at year one pay a bad thing? This levels up the competition between regionals vying for pilots. This means that the regionals have to try harder to attract and retain talent. This eliminates one of the biggest reasons pilots decide to stick it out at one company instead of starting over somewhere else. This is a good thing and it will hopefully force other regionals to implement similar policies, or offer retention packages or some other incentive to combat it. No other industry has the ridiculous pay structure we currently experience in this profession. This is a step in the right direction.
The RLA severely enhances management's position by severely limiting labor's ability to fight. If we had the ability to move to a different company without starting completely over, it would help level the playing field by making it much easier to say "f--- off management" whenever they try to not negotiate fairly (like in RAH's current case over the last 8 years) or shut down bases causing one to uproot their lives (like in Envoys case of going from 7 bases to 2). Because of this, I doubt upper level AAG management will go for the scheme despite what the Envoy men in the middle want.
09-14-2015 | 11:58 AM
#36
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Ask them why then in the past they wouldn't negotiate pay raises for new-hires only ?
This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part.
The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ?
Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future.
This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part.
The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ?
Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future.
Think about it, how does it go against the contract when offering a potential 4 year RAH FO a 4 year Envoy rate? He's at the bottom of the list. It doesn't make any difference as he still has to climb the seniority ladder as the rest of us did!
I'm not saying that this isn't under consideration, it is. There are just a lot of variables that need to be looked at before proceeding.
09-14-2015 | 12:04 PM
#37
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Very well said. This is the first step to creating job portability. As I understand it, the proposal is for carrying over years of service for pay only, not for bidding or upgrade. Hopefully other carriers follow suite, so it helps to increase total QOL and pay within the regional industry.
The RLA severely enhances management's position by severely limiting labor's ability to fight. If we had the ability to move to a different company without starting completely over, it would help level the playing field by making it much easier to say "f--- off management" whenever they try to not negotiate fairly (like in RAH's current case over the last 8 years) or shut down bases causing one to uproot their lives (like in Envoys case of going from 7 bases to 2). Because of this, I doubt upper level AAG management will go for the scheme despite what the Envoy men in the middle want.
The RLA severely enhances management's position by severely limiting labor's ability to fight. If we had the ability to move to a different company without starting completely over, it would help level the playing field by making it much easier to say "f--- off management" whenever they try to not negotiate fairly (like in RAH's current case over the last 8 years) or shut down bases causing one to uproot their lives (like in Envoys case of going from 7 bases to 2). Because of this, I doubt upper level AAG management will go for the scheme despite what the Envoy men in the middle want.
I think Envoy ALPA wants to sell this concept on the fact they can be first and thus become the powerhouse BEFORE other carriers realize they're screwed and act too late. Of course, what if Delta and UAL DO see the threat act very quickly (let's face it, Delta is shrewd and smart) and then what ?
Envoy's ALPA possible pyramid scheme foundation of poaching fails and it is Envoy that goes back to contraction and despair. I think THAT is the sales pitch. It seems everyone is selling now at Envoy, I guess even to each other now.
09-14-2015 | 12:11 PM
#38
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Think about it.
09-14-2015 | 12:21 PM
#39
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From: EMB 145 CPT
Undermining the profession yet again ?
Ask them why then in the past they wouldn't negotiate pay raises for new-hires only ?
This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part.
The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ?
Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future.
This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part.
The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ?
Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future.
Look, the market dictates that airlines need to compete for pilots. I don't have a problem with that. If my regional goes out of business, oh well. I have a plan B and feel bad for those who don't (but should've). I only have a problem with an MEC agreeing to concessions in direct exchange for a fleet commitment. That's just my opinion and it happens to be different than yours. Why do you even care anyway? Is not the West's supposed trifecta more of a concern to your current situation?
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09-14-2015 | 12:30 PM
#40
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"Portability" might be a great idea depending on the details, but for it to work for ALL pilots, there cannot be any "losers" per se in the equation. As long as there are virtually no replacement pilots available, that means there WILL be losers and some MAJOR losers. TRUE portability would mean lateral moves for any pilot including seniority. Without that and coupled with no replacements, it becomes not only roulette, but Russian roulette.
I think Envoy ALPA wants to sell this concept on the fact they can be first and thus become the powerhouse BEFORE other carriers realize they're screwed and act too late. Of course, what if Delta and UAL DO see the threat act very quickly (let's face it, Delta is shrewd and smart) and then what ?
Envoy's ALPA possible pyramid scheme foundation of poaching fails and it is Envoy that goes back to contraction and despair. I think THAT is the sales pitch. It seems everyone is selling now at Envoy, I guess even to each other now.
I think Envoy ALPA wants to sell this concept on the fact they can be first and thus become the powerhouse BEFORE other carriers realize they're screwed and act too late. Of course, what if Delta and UAL DO see the threat act very quickly (let's face it, Delta is shrewd and smart) and then what ?
Envoy's ALPA possible pyramid scheme foundation of poaching fails and it is Envoy that goes back to contraction and despair. I think THAT is the sales pitch. It seems everyone is selling now at Envoy, I guess even to each other now.
I said it was a first step. Currently, there are few pilots in the pipeline due to the crap pay and QOL at the regionals not making the high cost of earning all needed ratings worth while. Traditionally, if you weren't a military pilot, the majority of pilots gain experience trying to get that major airline job at the regionals. If job portability would come to fruition at the regional airlines, it would also bolster greater pay and QOL overall. This in turn might help some to choose the piloting profession again. It by no means could ever be an overnight scenario, it's a long play, but it is certainly better than being stuck at an unstable company in an unstable industry with no hope of improvements and hope it doesn't blow up in your face. Without a doubt, there is going to be contraction in the regional sector, and as such, there will be casualties as some carriers cannot survive. At least you won't be the "MAJOR loser" if you do not have to start over from square one again.
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