Originally Posted by eaglefly

You Envoy salesmen are widely known for playing the "troll" card inappropriately when your product is questioned. I'll ask again........are you saying my post regarding what Envoy ALPA may be considering is NOT true ?

If it IS true and it leads to a 'pilot war' between regional carriers, how is that a GOOD thing, at least for those NOT at the top of the Envoy pilot pyramid ?

Originally Posted by Skyvector

DEFLECT, DEFLECT, DEFLECT!!!

Answer the question: In all those years at the Regional level, why did you never leave? I mean, it's not like you were a Regional pilot for a short time. It approached almost two decades.

Originally Posted by Skyvector

So answer the question, hot shot: Did you never apply to anywhere else? Or did you apply and just couldn't get hired?

Originally Posted by Skyvector

Which one was it? Because it's one of the two. You are tactic of trying to deflect this issue until somebody gives up is hilarious.

But you won't get off that easy, sweetheart. If you are going to swing your johnson around the Regional forum as much as you do you need to pony up and take responsibility for yourself.

So answer the question.

Originally Posted by snippercr

You're just as quick to play the "salesman" card when people disagree with you...Or post anything about envoy. At all.

Your assumption about a pilot war is pretty extreme.

Take any other profession - teaching for example. A person is a teacher for 4 years and has 15 credit hours plus. They are paid on a grid similar to us: go to years of experience, go to credit hours plus and you get that schools contractual rate of pay. The following year they go to 5th year pay. Let's say enrollment declines and the neighborhood isnt as good as it once was. This teacher goes to another school - they come in with 5 years of work and their 15 credit hours plus. Their rate of pay is THAT schools grid for experience (5 years) and credit hours plus (15). They do not start over again. Is there a "Teacher war"? Well, there is competition - some schools are more desirable to work at than others. If it was up to some, they would rather teach in an affluent suburban school than Chicago Public School system.

Let's take a Mesa pilot for example today. They live in Chicago but after Mesa closed the chicago base, are forced to commute to IAH. Mesa has, as most would agree, some of the lowest rates of pay and work rules. As a result, coupled with commuting this pilot has pretty low QOL. Now, after 3 years he wishes to come to Envoy because the base, work rules and ability to NOT have to reset his rate of pay. He no longer commutes, actually gets a RAISE(3rd year Mesa is 32/hr, 3rd year Envoy is 37/hr) and has better QOL. Did this "harm" Mesa? Well, using your definition it did - because one less pilot at Mesa hurts their ability to staff their flying.

However, using your argument, a Mesa CA going over to United also hurts the industry and contributes to your pilot war.

I really cant see how one carrier offering the ability to bring in credit for experience "harms" the industry any more than it is now. Let's take the imaginary Mesa pilot for example. Has a wife and kids and a mortgage on a reasonable property. He wants to spend more time at home like when he was not commuting to IAH. However, under the status quo he would take a pay cut for 2 years. While his time at home is valuable, that doesnt pay the bills.

I honestly see offering credit for experience as being a great advancement to the regional industry and moving us more in line with all other fields out there.

But hey, if you need to call me a company man, salesman, cheerleader, etc...well, most people who know me would disagree. You wouldnt hurt my feelings calling me that.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

So, the short answer is that my first post is correct. All I see so far from you guessed it..................ONLY the Envoy sales team is rationalization and deflection.

Man, I hope you guys get more then $96,000 this year, because you're slipping badly.

Originally Posted by snippercr

Maybe because no one else agrees with you?

Originally Posted by snippercr

I don't get paid 96,000 a year. Why does that matter?

Originally Posted by snippercr

Seriously, what happened to RJ Pilot?

Originally Posted by eaglefly

We had a GV ILS contest down in the basement last night and I lost. I'm posting from the backyard doghouse and plus he kept all the Cheetos since he one. It sucks being a bitter, angry old man who can't even beat RJ in an ILS contest anymore to say nothing of not being able to be hired by a major.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

Now you are the voice of the forum ?

LOL !



I'm sure individually don't, but I wasn't referring to you individually. Why does my individual career history matter in regards to the question of what Envoy ALPA may be about to do ?

Answer to both;

Absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

Just a messenger here, but word has it that Envoy ALPA is considering proposing a new scheme to poach pilots from other regionals by negotiating a contractual provision that allows pilots to come to Envoy at their former regional's pay rate (present pay) ?



Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies.



Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ?



If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there.



This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because;







- It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea.



- It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable.







Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others.



If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within.



Discuss.