I think your "facts" are borne of your position of view. Talk to most AA pilots and I think you'll get anything BUT what you say when discussing AAG (the "new" American Airlines) and whether they are living up to their promises, at least to the pilots. Parker promised to come in and change the culture here for the better, but most seem to agree that has yet to occur. I think it is in many ways worse, if not just as bad. Even APA who ushered him in on a flying carpet says that, i.e., that the long awaited positive culture change promised has yet to occur. One example is that they appear to be strategically dragging out contractual provisions that favor the pilots and quickly implementing ones that are beneficial to them.

IF AAG is willing to take that tack and arguably disregard the value of morale and employee good will at the core business, what can you reasonably expect from them regarding fringe entities like Envoy ?

Besides, what occurs at Envoy is largely a by-product of how Envoy management chooses to run their house and not solely the parameters and tasks assigned to them by AAG. No offense intended, but I think you are either truly naïve about what you posted here or are deliberately trying to paint a picture that doesn't exist.

eaglefly you are talking about a change in culture, which is subjective. The guy said that AA-the implication being AAG-is untrustworthy and does not keep promises. I ask for specific examples. Saying that the much anticipated culture change at AA has yet to occur is not an example. That is subjective and open to interpretation. Cite specific examples of a promise made that was subsequently broken. In particular as it relates to Envoy. Otherwise, this argument is over as I'm not going to get into yet another "spin the wheels in the mud" match with eaglefly.

I don't like Parker anymore than the next guy. But he and the rest of the US Airways team are far and away better than what we had previously under AMR. And it pains me to say that because it puts me in a position of having to defend them every time someone mistakes AAG with AMR. Airline managers are all scum and in my opinion out of touch with the realities of flying the line. But to say that AAG hasn't been keeping their promises is inaccurate.

Saying that AAG is untrustworthy because AMR was untrustworthy is disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

You are absolutely correct. Been out of the loop a few years. Based on what I have been hearing from my friends who still fly there and the posts on this board (and others) I had made the assumption that AMR to AAG was nothing more than a name change, because from my vantage point, I cannot tell the difference between the two in the way they treat you guys.

I stand corrected.

But I DID provide an example of AAG not keeping promises. I stated they they are dragging their feet and stalling out pilot beneficial contractual components and implementing self-beneficial ones. One claim involves "computer issues", but many issues requiring that don't seem to impede company beneficial provisions. I'm just going on what APA is saying, so it isn't just me. Aside from specific examples involving Envoy, why is that necessary if one shows that promises are broken elsewhere by the same source ?

Do you think Envoy is "special" in Parker's eye's somehow, more so then AA ?


My opinions have nothing to do with Parker personally, just connecting the dots on an entity that from most views here talked-the-talk, but has yet to walk-the-walk in regard to what they implied we could expect at the "new" AA. Again, if they aren't meeting that litmus here, why should anyone believe they intend to do that there in the future ?

AFAIC, anyone who makes that assumption based on the present view outside the front windscreen here or there, I consider disingenuous at best and ignorant at worst.

This whole argument can be settled fairly easily:
Someone who works at Envoy can look up a pilot on the seniority list that was hired roughly around the same time as the first 2.5/6 announcement, and let us know how close that pilot is to upgrade/flow. Done.

I hope for his sake that he secures a mainline job before he colleagues flow because he clearly carries a great deal of doubt about his decision to leave. If hindsight proves that it wasn't the "best" decision, I am not sure he will be able to live with it.



Parker is definitely worse than Arpey or Horton. But that and his relationship with AA/APA is hardly the point. Parker is a glorified accountant. His decisions concerning the flow and flying allocated to envoy is all about the numbers and whipsaw negotiation tactics. Parker will make the flow work because its a cheapest alternative recruitment tool. envoy will eventually offer increased financial incentive to attract new hires, it will never be as much as companies like RAH, TSA and SKYW will have to offer. Its saves him money so he will MAKE it work.

The stabilization of envoy's fleet has nothing to do with Parker being a good person or being happy with our cost structure. In fact he has very openly discussed his regional contract strategy. Lowest bidder gets the contract but if their performance numbers fall, they will lose it. The only reason that flying is stabilizing/coming back to envoy is because it lowest bidder contractor over estimated their abilities to staff the contracts that were under bid during a scarce pilot marketplace. In any case, AAG and envoy's management's plans have changed and the contraction and stagnation that have haunted envoy pilots since 2011 have stopped. A normal person would be happy that some positive things are happening for his former coworkers. Then again, narcissists don't usually identify themselves as part of a group, because its all about them, isn't it.

It's not always the perspective that gets you the attention you get, it's the method and frequency of delivery. Plenty of people share your opinion, but they have the sense to say it and then shut up until able to contribute something new to the discussion.

Your last two sentences are perfectly reasonable and sensible, something the vast majority of people here have been saying for a while. The outliers are the ones putting envoy on a pedestal, but there's no shortage of haters.

Interactive Seniority List provided by ALPA shows a Nov '15 hire would flow in March 2022, so around 6 1/2 years to flow. The problem is the assumptions to make those numbers work and 2022 is a LONG, long time from now, way too long to make an accurate prediction. Mgmt doesn't even know what's gonna happen 6-12 months from today. Look at our Miami base for example, they closed it and less than 12 months later they came back asking us to open a satellite base 'cause Republic couldn't handle it. Someone should build a flux capacitor and solve this once and for all.

I don't see Parker as better or worse then his predecessors, he's pretty much the same. The primary difference here and now IMO, is that his predecessors showed little interest in the labor/product association whereas Parker claimed he did. He stated that he thought AA's biggest obstacle (or something to that effect) was its poor labor relations and so he set himself up when he promised to make that a priority of correction and then failed to deliver or at least has failed so far. When the rank and file see that occur, it tends to make one look worse then your predecessors not by comparison. I understand your opinion on what Parker thinks of the flow and yes, I agree you are correct in that it serves the best purpose for stabilization of AAG's feed while solutions to the problem are devised long-term. But IMO, Envoy's flow as it stands now is simply a short-term situation in present form to clean up and put to bed an arbitral albatross and once that is gone, more significant alterations in the AAG feed network will occur balancing out this mechanism. Thus, the belief that Envoy will remain a superior entity to other AAG WO's in the future is misguided. Let's face it, many present Envoy pilots DO feel Envoy is superior to other regionals and have stated so here and elsewhere. This is a delusion that simply reinforces desirable ideals about what the future is for Envoy in relation to that which is supposedly inferior to it, even non-AAG regionals.

Your comments above bely just that sentiment.


Don't look now, but there you go again throwing rocks with your "narcissist" claims......and you wonder why the rocks come flying back at you, yet. :cool:

You were doing so well at not poisoning a nice discussion, too.

Oh well. Anyhoo, what you discuss is likely to be temporary, but it's more useful to muddy that up for more flexibility in the future and not simultaneously and unnecessarily startle the snakes slithering in that particular patch of grass. The lowest bidder paradigm is indeed the driver and once the 824 are cleared out, all that will remain at Envoy that needs to be corrected to ensure Envoy's equality is a few hundred lifers on 18-year scale and a 12/4 pay scale. Rest assured that will come and Envoy will almost certainly contract to approximately balance the growth that will be seen in the other WO's over time to have 3 equal carriers with identical pilot labor costs and flow-thru's, absent consolidation, of course.

Is it coincidence AAG has withheld Envoy's flying allocation for 2016 past March ?

You'd think that if your blind claim that Envoy can only grow and has no risk of over-estimating its OWN abilities (which you seem all to eager to do) in the future, AAG would have more confidence in making commitments to it beyond a few months. They haven't and there's a reason for that. I think the reason is that Envoy is not going to be what you think it will in a year or two and if it's not, any claims of X upgrade or Y flow are indeed pie-in-the-sky optimistic projections or as I believe it was you who said "suggestions". I'm happy many patient Envoy pilots are flowing and things like that ARE good, but just because most of the feedback I get from sources INSIDE Envoy don't paint a rosy picture there and I question claims that don't add up to me and I acknowledge that doesn't mean I'm narcissistic, nor have an ax to grind.

It seems the same few of you really do want others who don't always toe a happy line about Envoy and instead highlight the stark realities and questionable contrasts are the ones the same few always want to "shut up". Someone posted Ric's latest blast and that contributed nothing new, being a rehash and yet, no criticism there from yes...........the very same few of you.

Coincidence ?

I think not. :cool:

I too think you too make some occasionally good points, but when you don't, I don't demand you shut-up or go away. I guess we're just wired differently, eh ?

Yes, you believe there's no shortage of haters, but I believe there thankfully IS a shortage of sellers, but unfortunately who when not doing or advocating that, turn their caps backwards and become vicious attackers of those they believe are haters even when they are not. I guess conflict is a way of life, yes ?