They will park planes to honor the flow. Pedro said that.


Good Luck!

Pot, meet kettle...

AA/envoy ... I luv envoyDecember 15, 2015


Dear Fellow Employees,

Travel is one of the best privileges of working at an airline. As the largest airline in the world with the best network, it’s an even more compelling benefit at American. It’s our goal to have the best travel program in the business, and each year we review our travel program and compare it to our peers to make sure that statement remains true.

In 2016, once all the necessary system updates can be programmed, we are excited to announce that non-rev travel for both main and premium cabins will be free of charge.

Here’s how it will work:
· Employees, eligible retirees and your eligible dependents (spouse, domestic partner, registered companion and kids) will enjoy Main Cabin, Business and First Class travel at no charge. If the seats are available, you will be in them.

· Just like some popular credit cards, there’s no annual fee! Some carriers waive premium upgrade fees yet require eligible travelers to pay an annual fee for their travel benefits. That’s not the case here. American’s program is ALL free of charge, NO fee travel. Note: Some taxes when traveling internationally will still apply; they’re required by certain countries and airports, and are out of any airline’s control. Similarly, under IRS rules, an employee is subject to imputed income for travel by domestic partners or registered companions.

As you might expect, we’re excited to bring these changes online and begin putting them to use. And although we can’t implement them system-wise January 1, 2016, we anticipate we’ll be able to have them up and running by June 1, 2016.

We are the world’s largest airline, and we’re building the best team in the business by offering the best travel program in the business. Watch for more information in the year ahead. In the meantime, if you’re traveling over the next several weeks, be sure to thank a frontline colleague. It’s a stressful time of the year for many travelers and our team is doing a fantastic job of taking care of them as they make their way home for the holidays.

You do you the "right size" is a thing from the past? That was before AAG realized the other regionals are having trouble staffing the flying.

The flow is working as advertised, we are getting new hires and if the upgrade goes down, people will come.

Be happy at spirit and forget about envoy.

Recently Delta pilots settled a dispute in their contract about international flying that was suppose to be at Delta but the company decided to dole it out to the codeshare partners.
Many pilots thought the settled amount was far less than the damage of breaking the contract.
Right now the flow and the company's financial interest are aligned, no one knows exactly what will happen once they aren't. It stands to reason that an airline purses it own finical interest before honoring a deal. The caution is that you don't want to end up with a "Were sorry for screwing you and here's $5K for the 3 years of employment we cost you at AA". O and btw had you went to a different carrier when we promised you the flow you would be a captain right now or already at a different mainline.

You seem to be an expert on the contracts/agreements of other airlines (I'm assuming you don't work at either Delta or envoy). Where exactly do you work?

That still doesn't answer how stopping the flow would HELP envoys retention and recruitment. It would only solve their problems for a few months while FOs flee the company like rats off a ship and the new hires stop. Its like teaching a student pilot the importance of maintaining best glide speed during an engine failure. Pitching up may temporarily make it appear that you are stretching your glide path to make the field but ultimately you are shortening your glide path and putting yourself in an even worse situation you were in to begin with.

The Delta arbitration is not a valid argument because the only negative impact Delta had to deal with due to their actions was the financial loss. For envoy to stop the flow, they would eventually have to correct the contractual violation but would also suffer greatly on the retention and recruitment aspect of their business.

Please, anybody, describe to me a scenario where stopping the flow could have a long term positive effect on envoy's staffing. It just doesn't make business sense.

I recall a recent poll on EL earlier this year where IIRC approximately 70% of the pilots who answered (out of about 100-150 total) confirmed they planned to stick it out at Envoy unless an LCC, legacy or the AA flow called. In other words they were too committed to "flee the company like rats off a sinking ship" laterally just because. Based on that, new-hires at Envoy can expect little ejection from the more senior pilots who have too much invested should things change at Envoy. Anyone who is a captain certainly wont start over at another regional and most senior F/O's wont either. Those at the bottom of the F/O list are the only ones with so little invested that they would likely consider Envoy a bum hand and jack-knife out to another regional. However.........

........I don't think the flow to AA from any of the WO's will stop. Again, it will be more likely that once the three are of approximate equality and the 824 issue is finished, AAG will orchestrate a situation that requires Envoy to "play ball" on balancing the flow so as not to lop side staffing at any one WO, in this case Envoy. The monthly class percentages will be sought to be equal. AAG will have little problem getting Envoy ALPA to capitulate with the right pressure and let's face it, they've already demonstrated themselves to be on their knees at this point. The "plan B" option presented will be far worse. So..................if each carrier is 1200-1400 pilots in 2 years, that means Envoy would contract to that smaller size (which doesn't bode well for upgrades) and the others would grow to larger sizes (which DOES improve upgrade prospects) and so, if a pilot was on the street now considering this scenario, which would be the best slot to capture the best future flow slot (not to mention upgrade) among the 3 WO's ?

Remember, NONE of the WO's pilots including Envoy have specific flow rights by name, only assumed proj..........er, excuse me, "suggestions" by flow RATE. If the RATE is renegotiated to provide more balance that AAG needs to keep EACH WO stable, some will win and others will lose in such a "rebalancing". If Envoy ALPA balks and tries to replay an old hand they've already shown they don't have the stomach for, AAG plays hardball again with them. What could hardball be ?

Well, how about the very scenario you want someone to describe albeit it not for the reason YOU want, because that reason is flawed IMO ?

OK, AAG then informs Envoy that since they once again are resisting being competitive, Envoy will contract further and wa'la, the "rat" process begins again, but only from the bottom of the F/O list and just enough to get any delay in capitulation from Envoy ALPA. Suppose AAG concurrently offered any Envoy pilot a lateral move to another WO at their present pay rate ? You know........the very scheme Envoy ALPA tried to get their management and AAG to bite on recently targeting OTHER pilot groups ?

That would trim pilots nicely off the bottom who have little invested in Envoy and in fact, might not even delay their flows that much considering Envoy would contract even further (at least until Envoy ALPA once again cried "uncle"). Boy would Envoy ALPA then squeal about that, yes ? It wasn't "poaching" then according to many of you, but I'll bet you'd cry the opposite if Envoy was the target. At any rate, no captains would leave because of this and most senior F/O's won't because that poll ALREADY indicated most are too committed to reverse course, so Envoy only shrinks enough to get ALPA capitulation and we know that won't take long. Anyway, the bottom line is that I think in the future, AAG will want 3 approximately equal WO's with approximately equal flows (and identical CBA's) unless they instead move toward consolidation. But for a 3-legged stool (no pun intended :rolleyes:) like that to balance correctly, AAG cannot have lopsided costs or benefits. Since they presently ARE lopsided, that will have to be corrected either by negotiated agreement or in Envoy's case (as it is Envoy that is the one to shrink and whose flow must be diluted), pressure. I think it will be by negotiated agreement and quickly. In the situation of consolidation (less likely, but still a possibility), look for an SLI to determine flow suggestion and it likely wont be by DOH , but some component of status & category, meaning a senior F/O at PSA or Piedmont who has 2 years there, may very well be placed senior to a mid level F/O at Envoy with 3-4 years and thus flow sooner as again, none of the flows imply anything by NAME. They wont need to stop the flow, just renegotiate it and that means ultimately the 6-year suggestion of today is simply that.....a suggestion that serves a present purpose.

What makes "business sense" is what the longer term-plan for the WO's is and what APPEARS to be happening now, is NOT likely that scenario, at least IMO. I do realize some like you at Envoy truly STILL believe that you are AAG's fair-haired boy and superior to the others like the old days with AMR, but I think that is just wishful thinking.

It's nothing personal, just business.





For MikeFox who only sees one word from me, don't waste your time with the above, just read this condensed version -> blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. ;)

An EL poll, that's solid. Well, I have actual evidence from real people who did make lateral moves when things started going bad at their company. Many former Comair pilots currently work at envoy alone, pilots who left long before their actual furlough letter came when they saw the writing on the wall. Eagle/envoy lost 800 FOs between 2011 and 2014 who made lateral moves with what was going on there. We got just under 30 Republic FOs at envoy during their contract negotiations. Beside, my argument wasn't about whether those leaving would be junior or senior. (But yes, I do agree with you that the more senior a pilot is the less likely they would be to leave) My argument was that a stoppage of flow would cause an exodus, which harms the company's staffing regardless of what seniority those pilots may have had. To the company, a pilot is a pilot and trying to fix short staffing with a solution that was cause staffing to get worse doesn't make a lot of sense. Even if you attended a state school.

Are you just making things up as you go now. Envoy gets 50% of AA new hire class. period. Unless you figure out a way for hundreds of pilots to not turn 65 or lose their medicals or AA figures out a way to move planes around without pilots, they will have to hire new pilots and envoy gets 50% of those positions. Simple. Rates, suggestions... they have nothing to do with it. 50% of new hires are envoy. Simple.

I want a theorem that can be backed up with a logical arguments and actual evidence to support that theory. Not made up rates, suggestions and claims that "anything can happen". To be far, yes, ISIS could overthrow the US Government and not allow us to flow. Not likely, but since you like to deal in extreme unlikely scenarios. I concede, anything is possible. :rolleyes:

So your argument is, "But they can ask you to renegotiate your contract?" Your scenario has so many far fetched assumptions, I'm surprised it didn't involves aliens and Purple Spaghetti monsters. The likelihood of your scenario happening is about as likely as APA agreeing to relax scope so that Parker can put the Embraer 190s at the regionals. How likely is that to happen? So yes, they could ask ALPA to renegotiate the flow just as they could as APA to further relax scope. The Earth could also get hit by a meteor tomorrow. Just because something has an extreme possibility doesn't make it probable.

My scenario is no more far-fetched then the blind belief by your little group (and yes, the three of you know each other and now you have a new buddy brought in..........or is he just one of you ?) that what is happening now at Envoy IS the blueprint for the future and Envoy's upgrade and flow suggestions are something to be confident in because of that and are a rock of Gibralter. As for the E-190 issue at AA, that isn't as far-fetched as you claim either. In fact, our CBA has an avenue already available to do that, but it would require some significant twists and turns and yes, that avenue even might involve Envoy. It is simply another reason that to add that the painting you love so much now depicting the present Envoy as the Envoy of the future is no better a bet then my scenario(s).