Your claim of ALPA winning all Letter 3 grievances in incorrect. They lost at least one, several were split awards and at least one more was filed by AMR. Your claim of precedent is equally incorrect as the grievances for the most part were in specific relation to the agreement itself and to compare the specifics of Letter 3 to the protected pilot agreement is comparing apples to oranges.

Welcome to the logical argument bankruptcy club in trying to support your arguments. :rolleyes:

Yes, a legend in your own mind. :rolleyes:

You still need a vacation IMO. Those palm trees are calling.

Wow, someone wrote that with anger! The 824 are 824 Captains (or former Captains) who have flow through rights to AA based upon 50% of the class. They keep certain benefits such as vacation upon transfer to AA that are not available to any flows beyond the 824 They are not 824 names on the seniority list when the judge ruled. You stated "when you hire at AA these 824 will be in those classes" as if to say that the judge picked 824 names and awarded them transfer rights. The protected pilot agreement allows for transfer to AA at a certain ratio for anyone hired pre-October 2011. The flow per the cba also allows for a transfer to AA at a certain ratio at both pre-DOS rates and post-DOS rates.

My argument throughout this entire thread has been against those who are convinced that the 824 will work (because it is) but anything after that will be bottlenecked. At no point in time has anybody given any sort of logical reason why this would happen. The only way I can see it not happening is if AA does not hire, in which case the flow agreements aren't even being violated.

On one hand we have you saying they won't be honored likely because you got screwed by AMR (note, not AAG) and ALPA. On the other hand we have eaglefly saying it won't be honored because he thinks AAG is going to want all WO's to have the same type of flow agreement. Then of course there are the others on here who say it won't be honored because they're grasping at straws to keep people away from envoy. Yet at no time has anybody brought forth a logical argument as to why it won't be honored except their own selfish and misguided opinions!

Well, I'm done for now. I thought this forum might have some decent info on it but it appears to be full of idiots who never have worked here or don't work here anymore but still hold a grudge. Great job.

Actually my dog in this discussion is limited to not blow smoke.
I never stated they are named pilots in the 824, I just referred to 824 pilots.
Whether aag honors the protected pilot agreement is up to aag not me, I just don't want anyone to bet the house and their career on this particular portion of the CBA, that's all.

People want to see unicorns, that is there choice. I will not sell anything in envoy contract as guaranteed in stone, not even my job is completely guaranteed. The flow is a gimmick used to attract pilots at the w/o regionals without having to increase pay and benefits, but other regionals are doing exactly this because they have no flow except commute air.

That's all I have pointed out, that the flow is nothing but a recruitment tool used by aag and can be implemented anyway aag wants to after the 824 arbitration is complete.

I do not work for hashimoto to recruit for the w/o's, nor will I ever.

So what your saying is that the flow can't be f'd with and we are all going to be at american in 6 yrs or less? Sweet. Nothing bad can happen or be taken advantage of.

No never Said anything like that. Feel free to present that position as your own, not mine. Sell what ever you need to prospective pilots. All I will say on this and it will be my final point on this, nothing is a guarantee.

But people should understand that without new hires at the w/o regionals the flow WILL stop after the 824 and those already there need new hires to come so those already there may improve their chance to flow.

How many management personnel are on the forums pushing flow in lieu of substantial pay and benefits for the pilots.

Sounds like they're flowing 30/month starting in January.

I think you are spot on with this. Others keep saying that the flow is not dependent on new hires. Sure, that's the case now while you are still shrinking. With 1950ish pilots, Envoy is probably about 300-350 away from being "right sized" according to AAG. And yes, there is the possibility of getting a few 145s back and who knows when/if the CRJs start leaving again.

If increasing aircraft count is what happens, those new hires are going to be needed sooner or later for this flow to keep going. I've asked before and will ask again now. Do you really think AAG will let aircraft sit idle in order to "honor the flow?" If you do, I'd like some of what it is you are drinking.

I agree also that this flow is being used by management as a recruiting tool.

This is that ass talk I was talking about. The flow can't be stopped. It falls under the same contractual assurance that says you get a min guarantee for the month, and your pay rate. You might as well go around saying, don't work here, there is no guarantee your paycheck will cash. Stopping the flow would make staffing worse, not better and would be overturned through arbitration. Saying, "Anything Can Happen", or "There's No Guarantee" rates right up there with that TV evangelizer saying, "You don't have to understand, You just have to have faith." Stating broad ranging vague philosophical statements is not a valid argument that AAG would violate the contract in a way that would exacerbate the problem that such an action is suppose to address.

I would like to know what you are drinking to think that stopping the flow wouldn't immediately cause this place to self destruct. I have news for you. There already are aircraft sitting idly by because they can't staff them. The situation you claim will come and cause management to stop the flow, ALREADY EXISTS, and guess what? They haven't stopped the flow.

EMB145's Logic : We can't recruit enough to staff. We take the biggest recruitment & retention incentive away. Recruitment and Staffing is now better. :confused: