ORD Republic X-wind Landing
11-11-2014, 10:30 PM
#91
Nice lookin' tree, there!
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD-11, old man
Posts: 2,198
Originally Posted by DENpilot
Fine job? Do you think his flight instructor said that when he landed his 172 like that?
That landing was complete ****. It's one thing to use correct technique and plant it on, but it's another to just have a lack of flying skills.
That landing was complete ****. It's one thing to use correct technique and plant it on, but it's another to just have a lack of flying skills.
fbh
11-12-2014, 12:09 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
One thing here, high-zoom telephoto lenses greatly, greatly exaggerate angular differences. You see that 27L looks about 4000' long and 400' wide in that video, right? It's because you're looking at the runway from a low angle far away, and the view shown is only a few degrees wide. I'm guessing they landed with about a 5 degree crab, not ideal but not nearly as crazy as the ~20 degrees that video would appear to show.
That said, it still looks like fairly poor crosswind technique in that particular airliner. I have about 6000 hours in the E170/175 and have landed it at its max demonstrated crosswind component limit of 38 knots several times (once on 27L at ORD, in fact). There is absolutely enough rudder authority to decrab the plane, but you have to start it around 50 feet, you have to be pretty assertive with the rudder, and you need to put in a commensurate aileron input at the same time or you get what appears to happen in the video: the rudder input lifts the upwind wing, the wind further catches it, and you trip over the downwind main before you've finished decrabbing, arguably with more sideload and more directional instability than if you'd simply landed wings level in the crab. You really need to get that aileron in, purposefully plant the upwind main, and progressively increase the aileron input throughout the first portion of the landing roll. It's not a particularly easy maneuver in nasty conditions, it differs with each airplane (would want to be more careful on a model with less wingtip/nacelle clearance), and it's one we don't get to practice very often. When was the last time you had a 90 degree crosswind anywhere close to max demonstrated? The time before that?
I don't think inexperience is the issue here, I'd guess someone who spent their last 1500 hours in a C150 is actually less likely to make that landing than someone who spent their last 1500 hrs in the E175! The issue is moreso lack of recent, relevant experience. Even those of us who like to handfly and do it often typically only do so for a few minutes per flight, usually the exact same minutes of takeoff and landing, in generally benign conditions. It doesn't do a ton to prepare you for a really challenging approach with nasty turbulence, big airspeed gains & losses, and a honking crosswind. When you get one of those this time of year, chances are you haven't done one since last spring or winter. At least regional and narrowbody domestic guys get plenty of chances at it. If you have to land a 777 in nasty conditions, it could be years since you last had to do so! Good thing mass and momentum go a long, long ways in masking less-than-stellar technique.
I'd second the earlier suggestion to get some time in a taildragger. They're a lot of fun, and they give you 100% immediate and obvious feedback when you mishandle them. You'll learn more technique in one hour of dual than in several months of flying a jet. I actually notice an improvement in the quality of my jet landings when I've flown the Cub lately. There's a bit of a taildragger revival underway, it's actually easier to find tailwheel instructors and planes for rent than it was 10 years ago.
That said, it still looks like fairly poor crosswind technique in that particular airliner. I have about 6000 hours in the E170/175 and have landed it at its max demonstrated crosswind component limit of 38 knots several times (once on 27L at ORD, in fact). There is absolutely enough rudder authority to decrab the plane, but you have to start it around 50 feet, you have to be pretty assertive with the rudder, and you need to put in a commensurate aileron input at the same time or you get what appears to happen in the video: the rudder input lifts the upwind wing, the wind further catches it, and you trip over the downwind main before you've finished decrabbing, arguably with more sideload and more directional instability than if you'd simply landed wings level in the crab. You really need to get that aileron in, purposefully plant the upwind main, and progressively increase the aileron input throughout the first portion of the landing roll. It's not a particularly easy maneuver in nasty conditions, it differs with each airplane (would want to be more careful on a model with less wingtip/nacelle clearance), and it's one we don't get to practice very often. When was the last time you had a 90 degree crosswind anywhere close to max demonstrated? The time before that?
I don't think inexperience is the issue here, I'd guess someone who spent their last 1500 hours in a C150 is actually less likely to make that landing than someone who spent their last 1500 hrs in the E175! The issue is moreso lack of recent, relevant experience. Even those of us who like to handfly and do it often typically only do so for a few minutes per flight, usually the exact same minutes of takeoff and landing, in generally benign conditions. It doesn't do a ton to prepare you for a really challenging approach with nasty turbulence, big airspeed gains & losses, and a honking crosswind. When you get one of those this time of year, chances are you haven't done one since last spring or winter. At least regional and narrowbody domestic guys get plenty of chances at it. If you have to land a 777 in nasty conditions, it could be years since you last had to do so! Good thing mass and momentum go a long, long ways in masking less-than-stellar technique.
I'd second the earlier suggestion to get some time in a taildragger. They're a lot of fun, and they give you 100% immediate and obvious feedback when you mishandle them. You'll learn more technique in one hour of dual than in several months of flying a jet. I actually notice an improvement in the quality of my jet landings when I've flown the Cub lately. There's a bit of a taildragger revival underway, it's actually easier to find tailwheel instructors and planes for rent than it was 10 years ago.
11-12-2014, 08:27 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,269
Some of you act like you've never had a bad landing. If you really are the professional pilots you claim to be then I'm sure you've landed in plenty of stiff crosswinds and I'm sure you've had your fair share of good landings and plenty you'd rather forget. When I land in a crosswind, as almost everyone else flying a transport category jet, I try to crab, kick it out while lowering the upwind aileron in one motion as the mains are touching down. Often times it works perfect, sometimes you flare too high and get blown a little off the center line and have to fight it the last few feet down, sometimes the runway sneaks up on you and you kick out the crab too late. Who really cares, we all have good and not so good landings. In the end they taxied off the runway, got their passengers to the terminal safely, and as far as I know the plane is still fine.
Crazy that after watching one landing on youtube and some of you think you can claim that these guys have bad technique. I thought the landing was fine, a little late on kicking the crab out sure, but even with the perfect technique and perfect intentions not every landing turns out the way we want it to. Have some humility.
Crazy that after watching one landing on youtube and some of you think you can claim that these guys have bad technique. I thought the landing was fine, a little late on kicking the crab out sure, but even with the perfect technique and perfect intentions not every landing turns out the way we want it to. Have some humility.
11-12-2014, 09:28 PM
#95
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Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Q400 FO
Posts: 132
Originally Posted by TBucket
Looks like they were going for the same technique seen here... From the boeing flight test team, who probably know how to land airplanes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2LtHrn9Jw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2LtHrn9Jw
11-16-2014, 07:18 AM
#97
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 239
11-16-2014, 08:36 AM
#99
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Joined APC: May 2011
Position: E175, Left
Posts: 272
Let's be real, we all make s*tty landings (myself included), but this guy barely even made an effort to make a good crosswind landing. Looks like he tried to put in a little rudder, brought it out, and slammed it down on the downwind side of the centerline at the end of the touchdown zone. On almost any checkride, that would have been a bust.
Some airplanes might be certified to land in a full crab (Whatever that means...You can do it once without breaking the airplane? Seems like a ridiculous "certification").
Still, doing that consistently will beat the crap out of the airplane. You de-crab in the flare when you land in a crosswind, end of story. We are professional pilots. Let's not make up excuses for a simple lack of airmanship.
Some airplanes might be certified to land in a full crab (Whatever that means...You can do it once without breaking the airplane? Seems like a ridiculous "certification").
Still, doing that consistently will beat the crap out of the airplane. You de-crab in the flare when you land in a crosswind, end of story. We are professional pilots. Let's not make up excuses for a simple lack of airmanship.
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