Lion Air 737 Max Accident
10-30-2018, 04:14 AM
#22
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by flensr
Known pitch and power, very useful to know cold. At the very least if you're initially completely out of ideas, park the throttles 2/3 up, get the slats out for a little extra AOA margin, and put the waterline about 5 deg nose high to give you some time to sort out what's good and what's lying to you.
Config flaps up: 4 degrees pitch up, and 75% N1
Config flaps extended: 10 degrees pitch up and 80% N1
Merely speculating but if airspeed unreliable came up again soon after take-off with flaps extended and memory item was selected, which would explain the sudden climb.
Fact that a Mayday wasn't immediately declared suggests that it was a known problem that they were trying to resolve - but what happened afterwards is anyone's guess?
10-30-2018, 09:02 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Left seat on a kite
Posts: 1,884
To support the pitch and power idea. I currently instruct on a corporate a/c at a local DFW facility.
On the cold and cruddy sim day.....I let the crew begin the climb to 10,000 at around 230-240 kts. Give the PF a blocked pitot probe and watch the reaction. I would say 80+ percent of the crews initial reaction is idle thrust and increase vertical rate. From there, about 20% get a shaker or get extremely close to it. The loss of airspeed averages 80 kts through this event. Very few people’s initial reaction is to seek a pitch and power setting till you can get things figured out.
Many cross compare air speeds and still allow the plane to fly them while the airspeed plummets.
It’s eye opening to see the thought process, reactions and ideas to different crews.
On the cold and cruddy sim day.....I let the crew begin the climb to 10,000 at around 230-240 kts. Give the PF a blocked pitot probe and watch the reaction. I would say 80+ percent of the crews initial reaction is idle thrust and increase vertical rate. From there, about 20% get a shaker or get extremely close to it. The loss of airspeed averages 80 kts through this event. Very few people’s initial reaction is to seek a pitch and power setting till you can get things figured out.
Many cross compare air speeds and still allow the plane to fly them while the airspeed plummets.
It’s eye opening to see the thought process, reactions and ideas to different crews.
10-30-2018, 09:16 AM
#24
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Originally Posted by NaKaTaTuNa
Config flaps up: 4 degrees pitch up, and 75% N1
Config flaps extended: 10 degrees pitch up and 80%
But I was under the impression it was an FAA mandate, industry-wide. Obviously wouldn’t affect Lion Air....but I thought it might migrate from 121 to 135, or even Part 91 jet Ops.
10-30-2018, 09:38 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 233
This just boggles my Mind: " I would say 80+ percent of the crews initial reaction is idle thrust and increase vertical rate. "
This is what a 727 crew did about 30+ years ago and was a much discussed item in many a recurrent class.
The mind boggling part is this...In what alternate universe does an aircraft ( ANY aircraft ) climb with thrust at Idle AND continue to accelerate no less ???
Hard to fathom the total lack of airmanship, situational awareness, and common sense.
Now...Put me in a Sim and watch me do the exact same thing as the 80% mentioned above.
DOH!
This is what a 727 crew did about 30+ years ago and was a much discussed item in many a recurrent class.
The mind boggling part is this...In what alternate universe does an aircraft ( ANY aircraft ) climb with thrust at Idle AND continue to accelerate no less ???
Hard to fathom the total lack of airmanship, situational awareness, and common sense.
Now...Put me in a Sim and watch me do the exact same thing as the 80% mentioned above.
DOH!
10-30-2018, 11:32 AM
#26
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,430
Also had a FEEL DISAGREE message written up on the previous leg... those in combination would make for a very bad day (if the 737 is like the other Boeings I've flown more recently, it's been close to a decade since I've even sat in one).
10-30-2018, 02:00 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,439
Originally Posted by aviatorhi
Also had a FEEL DISAGREE message written up on the previous leg... those in combination would make for a very bad day (if the 737 is like the other Boeings I've flown more recently, it's been close to a decade since I've even sat in one).
The feel disagree is just a message telling you the pilot static systems are out of whack. It monitors the rudder feel system which in the grand scheme of things isn’t a huge deal at all.
Losing one or both pitot static systems in night or IMC, however, can be momentarily very disorienting. Depending on the level of automation and how dependent the pilots are on that automation, it can easily be deadly even in day VMC.
10-30-2018, 04:00 PM
#28
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,277
Originally Posted by Stimpy the Kat
This just boggles my Mind: " I would say 80+ percent of the crews initial reaction is idle thrust and increase vertical rate. "
This is what a 727 crew did about 30+ years ago and was a much discussed item in many a recurrent class.
The mind boggling part is this...In what alternate universe does an aircraft ( ANY aircraft ) climb with thrust at Idle AND continue to accelerate no less ???
Hard to fathom the total lack of airmanship, situational awareness, and common sense.
Now...Put me in a Sim and watch me do the exact same thing as the 80% mentioned above.
DOH!
This is what a 727 crew did about 30+ years ago and was a much discussed item in many a recurrent class.
The mind boggling part is this...In what alternate universe does an aircraft ( ANY aircraft ) climb with thrust at Idle AND continue to accelerate no less ???
Hard to fathom the total lack of airmanship, situational awareness, and common sense.
Now...Put me in a Sim and watch me do the exact same thing as the 80% mentioned above.
DOH!
My memory item #1 for unreliable AS or attitude is to fear for my life.
Once that's accomplished it then becomes easy to not worry about what ATC, FOQA, company or anybody else is going to think about what I'm doing. You need to fear death more than the barber-pole.
Also the attitude system on a modern jet generally KNOWS if it's jacked up and will give all kinds of warnings and flags. Absent that, start by trusting the AHRS. Pitot/Static might not even know that it's messed up.
10-30-2018, 04:31 PM
#29
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
August 6, 2013
737-800 - 0 Fatalities - Aircraft Damaged and Repaired
Landing excursion. Aircraft hit cows on the runway and veered off as a result of trying to avoid them.
GF
10-31-2018, 10:48 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
I may be over generalizing here, but I think the average flight crew globally would fare poorly if they find themselves rolled beyond 90 degrees bank and beyond 40 degrees in the vertical. Eg, Adam Air, Air Asia, Colgan, etc.
The human instinct to pull back is just far too strong and shown repeatedly in all these accidents. In the case of Adam Air, once the dive established and they broke out of the clouds and saw the ground, they just yanked it back while still in a bank. Ripped the elevators/horizontal stabilizer right off the plane. Had the training and mindset been there to first level the wings and then slowly pull back, maybe they would have lived.
Hopefully the FAA mandated Upset Recover course in all 121 airlines for 2019 will help flight crews.
The human instinct to pull back is just far too strong and shown repeatedly in all these accidents. In the case of Adam Air, once the dive established and they broke out of the clouds and saw the ground, they just yanked it back while still in a bank. Ripped the elevators/horizontal stabilizer right off the plane. Had the training and mindset been there to first level the wings and then slowly pull back, maybe they would have lived.
Hopefully the FAA mandated Upset Recover course in all 121 airlines for 2019 will help flight crews.
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