This has been hashed out before, so I won't repeat, but the military use of "training flight" is not the same as 61/91. I think I agree with what you're saying only in reverse. I would differentiate when they actually have a principal onboard. Other times, the helo is main A/C to deconflict - hold well outside, alternate altitudes, etc.

 

<sigh> To all the non-military folks… You need to understand that nearly EVERY flight in the military is classified as “training”. In 20 years of military flying, probably 95% of my hours would have been classified as “training”.

People need to stop focusing on this red herring. This was more akin to a 2-year line check for a part 121 Captain, where a line check pilot is in the right seat. It’s just a required box to check. There was no “training” going on, per se, and the pilot was not an unqualified “trainee”.

 

exactly, tired of arguing with the civilians on this. It will be among the least consequential details on this. People will get their pound of flesh from the army over this, but the “training” means nothing.

 

I know that we are on the same wavelength.

"annual night proficiency training flight" is what is the flight actual was called by the Defense Department's secretary. Night currency is what some others would call it.

 

Yes many military operations are for training, most ops on some platforms, probably 90+% of fighter flights (maybe a bit lower for the Navy right now, with carriers parked in 5th fleet AOR).

And in many cases "training" just means "practice" something you're already qualified to do.

I gathered that PAT25 was more of a currency flight, so line check vice IOE, but not certain.

 

Yes, I agree 100%, but I don't think it matters. Allowing intersecting traffic like that is the point of failure that will fail at least some of the time, training flight or not. It puts two aircraft in the same place at the same time.

 

yep, that will be the procedural change out of this. To allow a helo to be at 200’ on short final is so absurd that it defies logic. Maybe instead of watching us closely for their precious p-56 busts, they can deconflict traffic instead. Clearly they can’t do both.

 

100%. Things become normalized. I'm reminded of my first (and 1/2 of my second) OIF rotation - 50' and as fast as we could go, day and night. Somewhere during the second rotation, hard deck was raised to 200'. We ****ed and moaned like crazy. I think back to that 50' stuff with almost 25 years of age and hindsight and think, WTF were we doing?!?😂

Yup.

Yeah, like Fangs said, minus deployments (Katrina being one), at least 90% of my CONUS hours were "training"

I haven't read too much, but I think I heard 1000/500 up front and I read an article that the copilot was flying since '19, so not progression (IOE). I can't remember, but when I was in, our night mins were something miniscule like 4/month and rarely unaided. I'd equate this flight somewhat to me sitting on WB reserve, not being used, and picking up a quick trip to reset landings. Not training, but I'm definitely not as proficient as during NB flying 20-25 legs/month. NOT suggesting anything relating to the proficiency/recency of this crew.

 

I have no idea what criteria ATC uses to tell you to go around, but I would have thought a “collision alert” would prompt them to tell the CRJ to go around rather than going to the helicopter to check if they have them in sight. It looks like a good ten seconds passed between that second call (and presumably the collision alert) and the collision.

 

Agree 100%. Which is why this whole "training" thing is irrelevant and a red herring.

I don't either. I have no idea how often a "CA" shows up on various Tower radars, and I doubt anyone here probaby does. From watching a video of the playback of the radar and it's timing, I suspect the "CA" is what prompted the second call to the helo. The NTSB will be the ones to determine if that was within normal procedures, and/or whether a more direct pointout was appropriate.

Honestly, I can't imagine the struggle that tower/local controller will have for the rest of their lives, even if the NTSB determines him to have done everything by the book. It's the kind of thing that can send a person in to genuine depression with life-altering effects.