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Old 08-17-2013, 12:14 PM
  #261  
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Originally Posted by aflouisville View Post
If calculations are correct, Cpt. would have had 2200TT when hired in 1990
Would that be an unusual number for a UPS guy hired in 1990? It's probably a dumb question, but I'm not knowledgable about the state of the industry back then. 8600 hours does seem really, really low. Not that I'm implying it had anything to do with the accident of course. It's just curious more than anything.
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:20 PM
  #262  
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USMCFLYR-

The FMS generates a VNAV angle that meets all of the intervening fix restrictions and a TCH of 50'. Thus the CDA versus a dive and drive....so, mins treated like a DA (H) versus the old school MDA hope you pick up the lights by the MAP.

For the LOC-FMS will generate a 3.28 CDA to comply with the FAF altitude of 2300' at BASKN and the 1380' crossing restriction at IMTOY. (looking at the plate, looks like the 910' hill is just past IMTOY so perfect world should have crossed the hill in the 400' AGL ball park)

RNAV (GPS) has a slightly different CDA (3.24)-no clue why, same points but may get to smooth it a bit for IMTOY versus the old school crossing restriction.

GPWS callouts were reportedly for Sink Rate, versus a terrain warning.

Have to remember that kind of expected to land once you get close to the airport and the Terrain warnings are inhibited
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:03 PM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by Hayduke View Post
I think PAPI tolerance is actually 1 degree from the *3rd* light's aiming angle in a 4-light PAPI...see FAA JO 6850.2b, page 5.7.

As I read it, you'd get a degree of clearance at 3 red/1 white.

I hadn't realized it was this tight, but getting a degree of clearance at ~1 mi out gives you 92ft over the terrain. Factor in the darkness and a possibly steeper descent to get back on glide path...
Yes - the third light (of a PAPI-4) is set at 2deg 50mins (2.83 deg).
The 4th bar is set at 2deg 30mins (2.50 deg). The PAPI OCS is flight checked by flying below the 2.5 deg flight path and we look to clear all obstacles by a *safe* amount (we'd like a degree - but this is eyeballed). If there seems to be a problem with obstructions (like there was on Rwy 21 at KMKC), the information is given to the airport manager and the lights are handled by NOTAM action if required.

kronan - I do understand that part. THanks for explaining it again. What threw me was you mentioned the PAPI glidepath (which is 3.20 at KBHM) and I wasn't understanding where that was coming from. The fact that your FMS calculates off of a 3.28 when the LOC is entered makes sense. I'm assuming that the A-300 would have the Enhanced GPWS which would have the 'forward looking' mode disabled when approaching to an airport in the database - thus no 'Terrain' warnings.
FWIW - It is my understanding that different calculated runway points of intercepts will generate the slightly different glidepath angels that you'll see.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:23 PM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer View Post
Those who have flown to this runway know that KBHM is surrounded on three sides by large hills. The only approach that doesn't have a hill on short-final is 24. (But it has a BIG hill at the departure end).

The hill short of 18 is relatively unpopulated and has very few lights on it, or surrounding it.

If you fly what looks like a normal 3-degree glidepath to the runway, you will be very low over the hill at half a mile final.

A (still normal-looking) 2.5 degree would have you skimming the ground.

To fly to this runway with reasonable ground clearance, you must fly what appears to be an abnormally-steep final; hence the 3.28 degree Glideslope on the approach plates.

It was night/pre-dawn, and we had a front go through the night before. Not sure if there was any scud/fog in BHM.

God's peace to them. This could have happened to any of us.
Absolutely agree. There but for the grace of God.... What a set-up for failure
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Old 08-17-2013, 05:07 PM
  #265  
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sorry if posted elsewhere, but NTSB is saying the AP was engaged (apparently) until impact

https://twitter.com/NTSB

UPS Flight 1354 equipment, engines worked normally until flight data recording ended (photos, video) | al.com

UPS Flight 1354 equipment, engines worked normally until flight data recording ended (photos, video)

updated August 17, 2013 at 6:05 PM

BIRMINGHAM, Alabama -- A flight data recorder recovered from the wreckage of UPS Flight 1354 showed that the plane's engines and controls appeared to have been working normally in the final seconds before the Airbus 300-600 crashed, National Transportation Safety Board member Robert Sumwalt said Saturday.

The autopilot and auto-throttle remained engaged until the flight data recorder ceased recording, Sumwalt said in the latest NTSB press conference Saturday afternoon at the Birmingham Shuttlesworth International Airport.


NTSB updates public on UPS Flight 1354 Saturday August 17 BIRMINGHAM, Alabama - Robert Sumwalt, NTSB member on scene of UPS cargo plane crash, updates public on UPS Flight 1354 Saturday afternoon, August 17, 2013.
However, Sumwalt cautioned that the flight data recorder ceased recording a few seconds before the cockpit voice recorder. Both recorders indicated that there were two descent warnings about five seconds before the cockpit recorder captured sounds of impact.

"These are two separate pieces of equipment," he said. "One quit recording a few seconds before the other."

The flight's recorded airspeed was about 140 knots, which is consistent with the expected approach speed.

The NTSB will use the flight data recorder, cockpit voice recorder, airport radar data and other sources of information to recreate the flights' final moments, Sumwalt said.

"We will be pulling all of these sources of data to create a composite and accurate picture of what happened," he said.

NTSB investigators have scoured the plane's maintenance history, but have not found anything that might explain the crash.

"So far they are reporting that all service bulletins and airworthiness directives have been complied with," Sumwalt said. "And so far, they have identified no mechanical anomalies with the aircraft."

The FAA has not yet completed all flight tests of the airports' navigational aids because of the weather, but precision approach path indicator lights were tested and found to be one one-hundredth of a degree out of alignment, he said.

Flight checks of the airport's navigational aids could be completed this week if the weather cooperates.

Tomorrow, the NTSB will bring a UPS A300-600 to the Birmingham Shuttlesworth International Airport to test the approach risks and procedures for landing on the airport's north-south runway.

"In the coming weeks, we anticipate that we will do a flight test in a UPS A300 to see how this approach would have been flown in that type of an aircraft and to learn more about UPS's instrument approach procedures," he said.

Already NTSB investigators have conducted interviews of UPS employees and others who interacted with the Flight 1354 crew in the three days before the crash. Those interviews will be used for an assessment of their physical and mental condition before the accident, Sumwalt said.

According to Sumwalt, the flight crew checked out keys for UPS sleep rooms in Louisville, but the NTSB has not determined yet whether the crew used those rooms.

Two surveillance systems captured video of the plane exploding, but it is not yet clear whether those videos show much more than the flames after impact.

"We're just on day four of the investigation," he said. "There is a lot of work that remains to be done. This is just the beginning of the investigation."
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Old 08-17-2013, 05:23 PM
  #266  
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i am wondering if this isnt an altimeter setting issue....nothing else is really making sense.
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Old 08-17-2013, 05:57 PM
  #267  
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Condolences to the families and UPS pilot group
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:18 PM
  #268  
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I wonder what vertical mode was in use as well. Is it possible that a vertical path could have been input ? I know there was discussion of this a few pages back.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:09 PM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by savall View Post
I wonder what vertical mode was in use as well. Is it possible that a vertical path could have been input ? I know there was discussion of this a few pages back.
The A300 uses either Profile mode or Vertical Speed for a LOC approach, with Profile being the preferred method. In profile, the auto flight system and auto-throttles will mode revert and the autopilot will disengage at 50 feet below DA.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:40 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by cougar View Post
The A300 uses either Profile mode or Vertical Speed for a LOC approach, with Profile being the preferred method. In profile, the auto flight system and auto-throttles will mode revert and the autopilot will disengage at 50 feet below DA.
Okay thanks. That's what I thought. In that case, I believe it will be very interesting to learn what was in use. It's too bad the NTSB bases their briefs on the 95% of the population who doesn't understand more technical details.
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