Timbo

Ahh, you are correct CMD, I had forgotten about the flight time we put on the physical forms; Total, last 6mo, last year, etc. I didn't realize that number gets tabulated for the 100,000 data. Thanks.

I fly GA a little bit, but only day VFR and locally so I'm not up to speed on all their safety issues. My first 15 years flying were all GA flying, but that was over 30 years ago.

One of the funniest thing I heard when I later joined the Air Guard and went through their flight school was their comments about, "Those Dangerous Civilian Pilots!"

cardiomd

I see both sides of the issue... There are some GA pilots that scare the hell out of me at a local airfield, and there are at least two doctor-pilot colleagues of mine who I won't fly with. One has already destroyed an airplane, no kidding, NTSB report and everything, still has his cert., and another just makes me concerned with his attitude / actions, without going in to details.

However, I think most GA pilots are safe and competent. Just like everything in life, there are good and bad eggs. I don't think you'd want to judge all airline pilots by Marvin and Rebecca.

My CFII once said to me, "If you feel that flying an airplane is extremely difficult, you probably should not be flying an airplane." I think there is some truth to that. Obviously the flip side of that is complacency, which is equally dangerous.

Timbo

I was a dangerous civilian pilot long before I joined the Guard, that's why their comments struck me as funny. Then every time there was a cloud in the sky in west Texas, they'd cancel flying!

The biggest difference is between GA training and other pilot training is;

with the Military, if you don't -get it- right away, they'll send you home.

In the Major airlines, if you fk up they'll fire you.

But in GA, if you keep showing up an an FBO with money, but you're an idiot, they'll just keep giving you flying lessons until you pass the check ride and then you'll go out and kill yourself.

I know lots of excellent GA pilots, most are, but there isn't really much of a screening process to weed out the idiots, other than natural selection.

cardiomd

Well, I know a certain minority occasionally appear rankled that I participate in these forums, but that is pretty much why I returned to discuss aviation here. On the major GA forums, the topics are stuff like "I HAVE DIFFICULTY JUDGING FLARE PLZ HELP" or non-physics based debates of "Is it THROTTLE or PITCH for airspeed", or my favorite "Should I buy a cirrus or bonanza"*. Aviation tends to attract a lot of "interesting" people, in all meanings of the word.


*(The threads here are much better, my favorites are "I'M IN LOVE WITH DEBBIE HERSMAN PLEASE HELP" or "Tell that Doctor guy with the hot wife to go to the BONANZA forums" or "Where can I find pics of that NTSB lady".)

Timbo

There is one thing that both the military and airlines do, that the GA sector would benefit from, safety wise, and that is some type of recurrent training once per year. I know they do a BFR, but that's inadequate and doesn't go deep enough.

I'm talking about doing a real training/review program that takes a couple days of study, a written test, then a flight check too.

The problem with that is, it takes time and money and nobody wants to spend either one, just to be a safer pilot.

E2CMaster

There also needs to be a balance between "more training makes safer" (in theory) and driving the weekend flyer away.

If it's mandated down to the item like some Navy recurrent training is, it's not as much training every year, but every year the same training.

I did my BFR in November. First civil one I have done ever. I did like how the CFI (I was his first flight as a CFI) and I talked for a bit about what I knew I was rusty at (recip engine operation) and that I was completely unfamiliar with operating recips at high altitude, as I had never landed one above 2000' field elevation, plus I had not actually stalled an airplane in years (prohibited in the E-2).

So we went out, we reviewed high DA/PA operations, how to crunch the TOLD info, non emergency and emergency off airport landings, (common up in WY), deep stalls and did a spin, plus pattern work and a practice ILS.

I actually like the current system as it stands vs the mandated "do exactly x in a canned routine every year".

cardiomd

I really do not think that that would help, and likely just add a lot of hassle, regulation, and profit-making opportunity for those subcontractors with new "weekend currency courses." A good pilot remains current anyway, and does not need forced formal training. A bad pilot will just study for the test and slog through -- the BFR should catch these guys anyway.

At some point it is up to the individual pilot to stay current and fly within his or her ability. I think the BFR setup as it is is actually pretty good, and can be customized as needed.

If anything I think that more aggressive policing of drivers' licenses would be more needed than that of airmen, but that's another story.

Timbo

I thought we were talking about how to improve the safety numbers for GA?

More and or better training = better safety numbers. The Military knows it, the Airlines know it.

They've done studies you know...

Yes, the increased time and money required for more training in the GA world will drive some people away. Perhaps they are the ones having the accidents?

I always approach my required annual recurrent training with an open mind, hoping I will learn something new every time, and I usually do. There are those who fight it. There are those who think they don't need it.

Those are the guys I worry about.

cardiomd

Ha - well don't read in too many "personal inferences." I've only needed one BFR so I'm a newer pilot. It was ridiculously easy and I'm personally very current. For goodness sakes I spend my free time reading a safety section on an airline board and I am absolutely a fanatic about safety. It's not a personal thing for me.

My point is that everything is a hassle versus reward. Sure, making a bunch of hoops to jump through or "courses" with longer tests than a BFR ultimately may increase safety, perhaps we could get to 4 or 5 per 100,000. This would be advertised as a 50% reduction in GA accidents!

I'm still against it. Why? Because you inconvenience the innumerable people that DON'T need this government hand-holding.

We could put a dent in the 35,000 car deaths per year by increasing DL requirements. I AM in favor of this, because the DL requirements are right now so minimal and there is no currency. However, it is not done because of cost. With millions of drivers even spending a few more dollars per driver becomes wildly expensive.

GA is quite safe, and the bad pilots will need a LOT of help and attitude adjustment to stop being bad pilots. So, while you can worry about me because I may feel I "don't need it", it is mainly because the GA accident rate is already relatively low, and the requirements and hassle is already relatively high, and the remedy to increased training would at best be very costly and inefficient. We are not ferrying the public around, so it is simply less of a concern.

As a parallel example, during my training I did spin training, and this is not required. Although I feel it was helpful, I'm not an advocate of the FAA returning to requiring it for private pilot. Why? Mostly time / money / airplane availability, and the amount of safety such training adds is present, but relatively low in the large scheme of things. Interested people can still seek that stuff out if they want to become excellent pilots.

Timbo

I live in Florida, home of some of the oldest and worst drivers on the planet. I fully agree with you on the DL requirements.

On the recurrent training for GA types, I was speaking of the guys I fly with at the airlines in my comments above, not the GA types, but since you brought it up; it wouldn't have to be 'a bunch of hoops' to jump through.

It could be as simple as taking an online refresher course covering weather, stalls, ATC procedures, etc. and then a test, correctable to 100%. Then add a few things to the BFR. Not a bunch of hoops. And we could all benefit.

There is very little oversight in the GA world. You can pretty much get in your private airplane and go do what ever you want, and if you live to tell, then I guess you are 'safe', right?

A BFR that was ridiculously easy is not going to improve your flying skills. You need to be challenged if you want to get better. Good on you for the spin training, have you got any tail wheel time yet? Any short field, soft field type stuff? When your motor quits, that's where you're probably going to land, if you're lucky, so you might want to get comfortable with that.

Most GA accidents are caused by VFR pilots flying into IFR weather. I call it the John-John Kennedy syndrome. Have you got your instrument ticket yet? Do you keep proficient by flying under the hood every time you go flying with an observer? Or at least do some practice ILS's before you put it away for the day? Do you fly much at night, just for practice? Do you do any partial panel work? Cover up the airspeed and altimeter and go fly a few patterns at night.