Thank you, USMCFLYR. I appreciate your continued feedback.

 

All I can see in this situation is the SWA LGA nose gear collapse. Two pilots on the same controls is never, ever a good plan. If you're uncomfortable with what they're doing, take the controls. Do it assertively. Don't give a push here, a tug there and hope they'll get the message.

 

Actually read what I said and try again.

 

Okay - I'll quote you again, with bolding.

Clearly it's not your landing, it's the other guy/gal's. Which means it's their controls. And you are "getting on a control here or there".

I understand what you're trying to do or think you're doing. Salvaging the landing. I'm sure that's what the SWA Capt thought she was doing too...just a little push to keep the nose down. If you aren't communicating with one another, especially if you're hands aren't easily visible (like being in the left seat and just lightly pushing on the column with your left hand), it may just feel like the airplane to the person flying, who may increase force to compensate. It goes back and forth until someone realizes and let's go, and now you have a sharp force on the controls at low altitude. Bad day no matter.

I've flown 121, 135, and 91; two-crew and single. I've never seen a training program teach to "get on the controls here or there" as the non-flying pilot to keep things in check. That's a bad, bad idea. As I said before, if you aren't comfortable, take the controls assertively and correctly. Don't play a push-pull game with the other pilot until someone gives.

 

I tend to agree with DirectTo's take on this. Simultaneous flight control inputs by both pilots should be restricted to initial flight training and abnormal operations. Besides the points already raised, some systems will interpret opposing inputs as jammed flight controls and split the two sides - though the forces usually have to be quite high to do that if the system is rigged correctly.

 

"Bad landing" does not equal "crash". Impending doom is different than a "bad landing".

Now I can always structure posts like we're reading a manual, to attempt to cover every possible angle, but I tend to trust that people can make reasonable inferences on some things. Obviously it's hard to cover every possible angle. Though based on the remainder of my earlier post (like the part about safe vs unsafe, my qualifier of "don't particularly care about", and I do care about porpoising, it would be rather unreasonable to think otherwise) you could reasonably infer that while I might let someone drive it into the pavement or get lost in a crosswind, I generally won't let them trash the machine.

Not on anything I fly. If that was a limitation I'd know about it and behave accordingly. Also sounds like an Airbus thing.

 

Airbus system logic dictates that if BOTH pilot's are using their side sticks at the same time, the inputs will be summed. Air France is a good example.

 

I think we can all agree with what you're saying and the point you're trying to get across. A captain or FO can both ball any airplane up on the runway. I fully understand you keeping an eye on the other pilot, no matter what seat you're in, and calling for or taking action to make a go around happen if need be.

My only criticism is having two pilots on the controls at once. I can't think of any normal situation in a crewed environment where that would be a good idea.

 

Yep, no chance my observations are accurate.
According to BLS, most recent official data I could find, there are 104k airline pilots in the Industry. According to APC, there are 38k pilots working in my small sample. Facebook friends w/a plethora of SWA guys, but I rarely get the opportunity to chat face to face...still, doubt there are a collection of Capt is God guys working there. Over past few years, have interacted with another plethora of RJ Capts-all of whom I'd be happy to fly with and think are a credit to The Industry. Even perusing APC, just not a huge prevalence of Capt horror stories.
Shoot, if I was hitting 340 I'd be making the huge bucks in the Majors, so thinking my small sample is sufficient for a decent opinion. Let alone an Internet Opinion

So, when you blame The Industry, just not sure where you're coming from. Are you blaming the US Industry? Are you blaming small segments of The Industry, which First Air is a part of? Are you blaming the hierarchal culture prevalent in Some parts of the world?

 

Nope. The Airbus yells at you when there are two inputs. The inputs are summed not to exceed aircraft limitations when in normal law.

AF 447 is not a good example... there was only one pilot working the side stick that entire time.