First of all it's important to compare apples to apples I think. We've been around for 6 years and we're getting compared to legacies rather than other LCCs or, even more fairly, other airlines who are 6 years old. It's flattering, don't get me wrong, but it's hard to take seriously an accusation that we should be demanding what Delta captains used to make. During an industry downturn no less. As I compare what I've made each year to what my contemporaries are making -- well, it's right about the same if not more. And it has nothing to do with "whoring myself out." An average month of flying is 80+ hours. That's not close to excessive. And that means 10+ hours are paid at 150%. And yes, the quick upgrade helps. It's pointless to ignore that becuase that's our reality right now. The E-190 rates suck, you're right about that. Right now, though, it's a completely unproven concept. I think most people are taking a "wait and see" approach. If it proves to be successful, you can be absolutely certain that we'll be asking for more pay.

As far as retirement. I'm sorry to break this to you, but this has been the trend of the nation/economy for years. It has nothing to do with us. IBM took away pensions for crying out loud. It's miserable for the people who started in the old system and are being forced to transition into the new, but matching 401Ks and good old fashioned money saving are about the old way to be secure, in my opinion. JB adds profit sharing, a very generous ESPP, and options (which may or may not be worth anything, but are fun to watch). If you still have a pension then God bless ya, you're one of the lucky ones. But please don't blame JB if you don't.

I'm still debating this one. I do know, however, that it's not nearly as simple as what you're implying. Certainly you don't mean to say that the ICAO rules, which take circadian rhythms more into account than ours do, are unsafe? Yet they allow 8+ hours. My point is that the objections I have to the exemption are based on possible repercussions and misuse outside JB. This is a valid concern, though it's hard to base an argument on what unscrupulous people might be allowed to do with further exemptions at some undefined point in the future. But if you're going to tell me that a 10 hour daytime transcon turn is more "dangerous" than alternating day flights and redeyes with min rest in between then I'm going to have a hearty chuckle.

Can you "assure" us that? How do you know? How can you possibly know that your situation was like ours is now? You imply that mutual trust cannot be a form of leverage. I wholeheartedly disagree. A union is not the only way to communicate with management. At many companies it's necessary, but by and large we've been able to bring concerns, requests, and problems to management and for the most part they've responded pretty well, or told us in good faith why they can't or won't quite yet. It doesn't mean we don't have problems or discontent, it means that this system is working fairly well for us at the moment.

As for the 5 year contract, I've explained my thoughts on that, and the only response I've gotten is basically "wait until people start getting fired in 5 years." (which is a joke and has been addressed repeatedly) and "everyone else has one." Umm.. OK. Great. And?

Absolutely not true!

Well of course my obligations put you well behind family and well ahead of Iraqi freedom fighters. We do share a lot in common, which, for better or worse, gives me a vested interest in how you shape your destiny.
We may not compete, or even provide the same product, but forward of the cockpit door we have a lot in common. Whether we like it or not, all of us are affected by the pay/QOL/benefits we each have (had) and how it will affect what we can reasonably expect in the future. Looking out even further, you and I (in the future) can expect more pressure from off shore that will affect what we will make tomorrow. While many here blame ALPA for (their) personal misfortunes (with a previous airline), the pay and benefits you currently get are a product of ALPA negotiated pay rates (and what your management reasonably feels is the most they can come under them).
I shake my head when I read boasting (or is taunting a better word) from JB pilots about how UAL, DAL NWA pilots now make similar money to JB pilots. Keep in mind, as they reduce the cost of crewing their jet's, JB cost advantage becomes less and less. Likewise, the rationale to pay you more diminishes for your management. Word is that LCC, Airtran is asking its pilots for pay cuts/productivity improvements to offset the cost advantage they have lost to their legacy competition. What does this fore tell for you and the rest of us??
At one level, I could give a rats a** whether you unionise or not, even how much you are paid or how many hours you fly a day. The reality is I have to care because what you are willing to settle for may be what I'm forced to accept. Its a small world and getting smaller every day. Because you and your colleagues currently "op out" of helping to chart your current pay and benefits, the burdon fails more heavily on the rest of us. JB is successful and not a newcomer (anymore) its time to step up to plate and help set a higher standard, not defend a lower one.

Sorry don't buy it. Your being self depreciated. Your customers
don't look at you and discount you compare to Delta, they'd fly Delta over JB in a heartbeat if it saved a few bucks. I don't think anyone here expects you to be at 6 year capts to pay (old) Delta 12 year rates. It would be nice and level the playing field, but I don't think anyone here has any allusion that that will happen any time soon.


Regarding retirement.
Airlinepilot Central pay comparison is all I've got to go on. No A plan (agreed, but its still a shame its disappearing) No B plan. This is the 401K plan at most companies. Some percentage of your gross pay. Without an A plan, it should be over 10%, maybe near 15% or more. A matching part is OK, but when you have no defined benefit, this needs to be there and fairly large, otherwise you have to put income aside to have a reasonable retirement. Ask yourself this, "are you pulling money out of your take home pay (or should) to fully fund your retirement?" If the answer is yes, you don't really have a proper retirement plan. The profit sharing is good, but as you point out, can't be trusted to fund a retirement 20+ years from now. Just thinking about the Emron fiasco should be proof enough not to trust ones own stock for retirement. Add it all up, it woefully inadequate, IMHO.


Is JB advocating the JAR's (regulation) on duty limits for domestic flying?? If so, I'm on board. Or is just the good parts (like the 10 hour bit)?? , sorry than, I'm not with you . I'll try to look up what JB advocated when I finish this and post (if I'm savvy enough to do so) If its the JAR reg I'll stand corrected.


I'm going to keep this one short because I've said before and others (with less , how to say....diplomacy) have already been down this road. I don't think you have a true contract. I know you believe otherwise, so I'll leave it there. Thee are other things advantageous about using a union to interface with the company, and we all know of a very good example of a successful airline that is unionised top to bottom with a good labor-management relationship. Nuff said.

"Is JB advocating the JAR's (regulation) on duty limits for domestic flying?? If so, I'm on board. Or is just the good parts (like the 10 hour bit)?? , sorry than, I'm not with you . I'll try to look up what JB advocated when I finish this and post (if I'm savvy enough to do so) If its the JAR reg I'll stand corrected."

Would ALPA be onboard for such a change or are we going to hear more hot air from Duane?

Sorry, but I doubt anything being proposed by jb or its pilots will be welcomed in Herndon, after all, we are the devil or at least purported to be.
Duane has been talking about how the FARs regarding rest and duty needs to be changed, but as an organization, ALPA has yet to really put their foot down on this issue.

I am not a proponent of the transcons turns, however, as someone else said, it probably is much safer than the pairings the current FARs allows.

Right out of the annual report........along with a laundry list of things that could "harm" their business. Makes for interesting reading. I know......you must disclose these elements per the SEC, but of all the investment reports I've read, never seen the phrase, "could harm our business", used so much.

[QUOTE=Dizel8
Would ALPA be onboard for such a change or are we going to hear more hot air from Duane?

Sorry, but I doubt anything being proposed by jb or its pilots will be welcomed in Herndon, after all, we are the devil or at least purported to be [/QUOTE]


Are you so cowed by what ALPA says or thinks?? If you have a better way (referring to Dom flight/duty limits) than by all means put it out here. Who cares what ALPA thinks. I can't locate the proposal that JB suggested that would allow greater than 8 in 24. Could you publish what ever you have regarding this issue??

[QUOTE=Dizel8
Duane has been talking about how the FARs regarding rest and duty needs to be changed, but as an organization, ALPA has yet to really put their foot down on this issue.

I am not a proponent of the transcons turns, however, as someone else said, it probably is much safer than the pairings the current FARs allows. [/QUOTE]

May be true, ALPA's position on the last proposal from the ATA was negative. But than it didn't offer much beyond increasing the 8 in the 24. I would like a fair hearing on the JAR reg regarding dom duty. I can't find it and only have a post from another poster on this forum out lining the rule.
Since most pax carrier pilots are flying hard time (domestically) than I would expect anything that reasonably allows more flying in a single duty period would be looked on favorably. That said, the (length of) duty day needs to take into account many variables that currently ain't considered.
Let's put some fresh air on this issue!!