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Originally Posted by BrandiNett
Hi Tony,
Thank you for being so thorough with your critique of the APC Terms and Conditions and Forum Rules. I thought I would help clarify a few things though.
Hi, Brandi, I trust you enjoyed your 3-day weekend. I think you have misunderstood my posts. They were not meant as a critique of the APC Terms and Conditions (that's the name on the link, but the page actually says Terms of Use) or the Forum Rules. My posts were a response to one of your "helpful" Moderator's smug claim that "APC policy on scab naming is clear. Point, set, game, match."
The truth is, it's not.
Now, like I said, I did not intend for my posts to sound like a critique of the APC rules. I'm quite familiar with them, and I have no complaints about them. If the helpful Moderator would have directed awax and me and other readers to a place where we could read this clear APC policy on scab naming, I would have gladly reached across the net, shaken his hand, and thanked him for his assistance. Apparently he has retreated to the locker room.
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Originally Posted by BrandiNett
First, the Terms and Conditions for APC are at the bottom of every page, and even though they are not "Airline Pilot Central" specific they do apply.
Well, OK, the link at the bottom of the page says "Terms and Conditions", but it directs to a page titled "Terms of Use." Let's not quibble about what it's called. I'm aware of where it is, and what it says, and I even posted a link to the page in my post. It does not contain the clear APC policy on scab naming that the helpful moderator claimed exists.
Yepp, I'm aware of that, too, and where it is, and what it says, and I posted a link to the page in my post, too. (By the way, what ever happened to ole CleeIB?
) It also does not contain the clear APC policy on scab naming that the helpful Moderator claimed exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandiNett
Third, while there might not be a clearly outlined policy about specifically calling someone out as a scab, ...
Awww, see there, we agree! There is no clear policy. That's all I was saying, but our helpful Moderator apparently didn't want to back down. I'm glad we've resolved the matter.
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Originally Posted by BrandiNett
... this kind of behavior actually falls under several other rules and Terms we have in place.
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Content prohibited from our sites and services includes but is not limited to:
(3) offensive content (including, without limitation, court ordered defamatory statements, threatening, hateful or pornographic content);
(4) content that discloses another's personal, confidential or proprietary information;
(5) false or fraudulent content (including but not limited to false, fraudulent or misleading responses to user ads transmitted via our sites and services);
Quote:
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
Hmm, I'm not quite sure how those apply. Let me use an example. What if I were to say that Clay Lacy crossed the United Airlines ALPA picket line in 1985 and worked for United while the pilots were on strike? That fits even the most stringent definition of scab, but let's say I haven't called him a scab yet, I just posted the fact that he crossed the picket line. Maybe I could post a link to the
Clay Lacy article in Wikipedia or even paste a citation from the article:
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia: Clay Lacy
During the 29 day United Airlines pilot strike of May 1985 Lacy was one of the first pilots to cross the picket line and go to work on May 17, 1985, thus undermining the unionized pilots attempts for better pay and work rules. This forever earned him a spot on the Master Scab List, and earned him the unceremonious title of "scab". [12]
(The in-line reference is a link to the document supporting the assertion in the text.)
Using the excerpts you provided above, have I posted anything offensive? It's not a "court ordered defamatory statement", and it's not threatening, hateful or pornographic. It does not disclose personal, confidential or proprietary information. Heck, it's from a Wikipedia page entirely dedicated to the man. Nothing of what I have posted is false or fraudulent. I didn't post anything that was obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
Which rule have I broken?
Now, I get it that the Owners and Administrators and Moderators have the discretion to edit or delete any posts or threads you want, and you have the final say and all that, and if you want to delete that, I'm not supposed to complain. No problem. But we're back to the same place where the helpful Moderator began, claiming there's a clear policy where there isn't one. Unfortunately, the passages you've quoted don't really make it any more clear than when we began.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandiNett
Finally, it has been my understanding that APC has always operated under a policy that calling someone out as a scab is simply not allowed. It is not written down specifically as you seem to want it to be, ...
But wait, again, I think you misunderstand. It's not a matter of me wanting it to be written down specifically. I don't care if it's written down at all. What I care about is a Moderator chastising Members and claiming there is a clear policy where no clear policy exists, in any form.
I think you are also perhaps misinformed about how APC has always operated with regards to calling someone out as a scab. See below.
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Originally Posted by BrandiNett
... but since the site opened the forums have operated under the understanding that posts calling out someone as a scab were not allowed. This is where this phrase in the rules applies:
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The owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.
Actually, it has been allowed, and it has been done, even by a Co-Founder.
He was first to post in this May, 2007 thread about ... wait for it ... Clay Lacy. He didn't shut the thread down. On the contrary, he confirmed the label:
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Originally Posted by HSLD
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Originally Posted by mike734
according to the master scab list, he scabed for United in the 80's strike.
True statement.
In 2009, he posted the Jack London account of the scab:
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Originally Posted by HSLD
The Scab
"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab."
"A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles."
"When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out."
"No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself." A scab has not.
"Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commision in the british army." The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class."
Author --- Jack London (1876-1916)
In a 2011 thread titled "Why do airlines keep going bankrupt?" a member begins by posting an article by Caitlin Kenney that mentions AirlineForecasts analyst Vaughn Cordle. Our Co-Founder engaged in the conversation:
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Originally Posted by HSLD
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Originally Posted by Tsuda
Borenstein says a big part of the reason costs for these airlines are so high is because of labor relations. It's not just about higher wages — it's because of what their contracts say workers are allowed to do.
I was thinking high operating costs may have been because of interest on $26 Billion in debt, no doubt in the last few years AMR must have been paying loanshark rates. I wonder how many pilots were involved in securing those credit facilities?
Labor is a popular scapegoat, and seems to be a common theme in any article that UAL Scab Cordle is mentioned in.
By the way, the article ignored Hawaiian Airlines who is a legacy carrier AND filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on March 21, 2003.
Looks a lot like scab naming to me, though it was rather off-hand, and not much of a deal was made about it. gipple was more blunt, but nobody said anything about it:
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Originally Posted by gipple
"AirlineForecasts analyst Vaughn Cordle says when you adjust labor costs for productivity, American Airlines is one of the worst performers."
VC is a United scab. None of his opinions are valid.
Anyway, that is a more accurate reflection of how " the forums have operated" ... "since the site opened." I realize that predated Internet Brands' involvement, so I'm not criticizing you for not knowing it. I'm just presenting these as examples of the culture that has existed here for a long, long time ... even before our helpful Moderator arrived on the scene.
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Originally Posted by BrandiNett
Discussion OF scabbing is fine. Calling someone out as a scab is not.
Well, now see that is a clear statement of policy. I'll bookmark this thread for future reference.
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Originally Posted by BrandiNett
In the future please PM myself or Vagabond to resolve these rule issues rather than hijack/derail a thread. A failure to do so will result in more than just this friendly warning.
Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to address the matter for the benefit of all of us discussing the topic in this thread -- scabs. I hope you'll enjoy your week.
Oh, wait ... was that intended as a threat? I wish I could post a frown face here, but I've already used my allotment of 3 images per post. <FROWN>
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