Here we go again. You heard him...you pilots better give up while you still have a job! Don't you realize what you're risking????? If you keep this unruly behavior up you're likely to make Lekites start his period a little early!!!

When we organized there were 7 supervisors actively dispatching out of I think 58. Since the NMB decides class and craft (not the company or their lawyers) they were all given the choice to stay management or take a seniority number. 7 out of 7 took seniority numbers. So it basically went like this: TWU-- "We'll take all of the the supervisors who are dispatching since they fall under class and craft." UPS-- "Uhhhh, okay."

Man, what a fight!!! It's not the least bit surprising UPS has the arrogance to think their lawyers can overturn the NMB's class & craft rulings along with legal precedence set at this airline and many many others.

Am I missing something. Is everyone with a "AV8R" in their forum name a little different? Is AV8R a Marine harrier pilot? Just curious.

The key here is if the managers get date of hire with seat protection until they can hold a captain's seat. I think any line integration would have to allow this concept. The high timers in mgt. do not have to worry about this problem. They would be captains, anyway. Most line pilots realize that date of hire is the best way.

most line pilots realize date of hire is the best way---

did i miss another survey?

There was no survey. It is just that this is the most equitable way of doing things. This is the way it will happen, I guarantee it.

One thing is for sure...

If they would have been on our list during the '97 strike, they would have been scabs for sure, whereas they could dance around the issue then saying since they had "no choice" and they didn't have numbers they weren't in reality scabs. Primarily they were flying arond in empty airplanes for show, but some volume did move, so I guess it's a point of order for posterity's sake. As for now, all things considered I think it's a good move, but what's to stop these guys from waiving the contract on their own once they're on the list? They would be immune from discipline unless the FAA was involved, unlike us. Anyway you cut it, they will still be far more loyal to the company than the rest of us, but we as a group would get more flying so I see no reason overall to be against this.

I'm not so sure about that. Probably a few would be. However, I would bet that most of them would not. They would be protected under the contract. I am loyal to the company and do what they expect of me as long as its within the guidelines of the contract. I would anticipate that vast majority of the now managers, if they eventually fall onto the seniority list under the IPA contract, would do the same.

Wouldn't that make for a 20 hour duty day, without a required rest period ... just curious ? I am far from a regulation expert ... But 20 hours on the job just doesn't sound safe.


Before accepting a flight assignment, a flight crewmember must be able to prospectively determine that he/she will be able to look back 24 hours from the scheduled completion of each flight segment and find a legally scheduled rest within the previous 24 hours. The regulations allow for a rest to be reduced to eight or nine hours depending on the scheduled flight time. Under no circumstances may a flight crewmember receive less than an eight-consecutive-hour rest within a 24 consecutive-hour period.

To prevent air carriers from assigning non-flight duties during a rest period, the rules contain a provision precluding such conduct. This provision is contained in FAR 121.471(e) and a similar requirement is contained in FAR 135.263(b). FAR 135.263(b) specifically reads:

(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.

20 hours and sometimes more! What is the definition of rest? I don't think that you will find one other than free of duty. Working in the office doesn't count as duty. In fairness, I don't want the FAA to specify just what I can do before a flight, i.e. must I be lying down for 8 hours of my last off day, but by the same token the company has taken advantadge of these people and it has become out of hand. Not so bad lately as they have been flying so much that they haven't been able to do the office work. Which raises another question. If you can afford to have so many guys flying full time under th eguise as managers, do you really need them to staff the office at all? Probably not.